Tattoo Yachts

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kmclemore
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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by kmclemore » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:52 am

dlandersson wrote:Oh go ahead - be vociferous :D
Hey, at least I wasn't enigmatic or tenebrous... ;)

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by kmclemore » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:04 am

BOAT wrote:... Still - if I am going to "trawl" at only 5 knots why not just sail at 5 knots? Wallowing along at 5 knots under power slopping back and forth like some old fishing "trawler" is not my idea of travel, but to each his own....
A fair point, but which brings up a suggestion...

Actually, running as a 'hybid' is a fantastic way to not only run more stably but also to save a ton of fuel. If you have sufficient wind (and it doesn't take much), run with your sails up - actually, just the main will do fine - but with motor running in trolling mode (and, of course, ballast full). You'll increase your overall speed (compared with either sailing or 'trawling' alone) while also getting some pretty amazing MPG and delivering smooth running. Naturally, this works best when the boat is on a beam reach, broad reach or running, but can even be of help when slightly hauled.

This, in fact, is where the Mac & Tattoo "PowerSailors" really shine, but sadly it's one of the least used modes. Try it!

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by BOAT » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:08 am

A half empty ballast tank (or half full, for you optimistic folks) can really mess up your rear ballast valve gate under power. If you take off real fast or throttle down real fast all the water rushes back and forth and slams the valve gate. I have not seen it happen on a MAC but I did see the gate valve pop in a motor-home once.

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by kmclemore » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:16 am

BOAT wrote:...If you take off real fast or throttle down real fast all the water rushes back and forth and slams the valve gate. I have not seen it happen on a MAC but I did see the gate valve pop in a motor-home once.
Eeewwwwwww. Image

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by Tomfoolery » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:21 am

kmclemore wrote:Further, even in 'trawler' mode, the water in a half-full ballast tank can not only make a heck of a noise below as it sloshes about, but can also cause unexpected forces which may seriously affect the boat's handling. I reiterate - either run it full, or run it empty, but *never* run it somewhere between the two.
I used to drive trailer trucks, including tankers, and there's a reason that milk and other food tankers that don't have baffles* are either completely empty or completely full - never partially empty. Stopping a partially empty tanker with baffles (with all compartments of a different volume, but holes to allow them to equalize) is exciting the first time, when you start to slow and then it starts picking up speed again as the liquid hits the baffles and pushes. :o Water ballast that moves around while you're trying to control the boat could get more than exciting, too, and it's not something I'd care to experience. I could see the boat listing and being stuck that way, for instance.
kmclemore wrote:This, in fact, is where the Mac & Tattoo "PowerSailors" really shine, but sadly it's one of the least used modes. Try it!
I have, and it's a great way to fly. In fact, years ago I considered a motor-sailer (big boat with pilothouse, with a big(ish) diesel, and a small(ish) rig), and the best operating mode was with both sails and engine, by design. Too little sail to be efficient in all but a strong wind, but with some push from the engine, very efficient and very stable - the best of two worlds, though individually not the best (neither trawler nor sailboat).

*No baffles because it's too hard to clean and sanitize the inside with baffles.

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by BOAT » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:22 am

It was pretty gross, the guy swerved real hard to miss hitting a deer in the road and while skidding sideways his valve popped the bolts holding the gate and the stuff spewed out.

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by Ixneigh » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:06 pm

I've tried the power sailing bit with just the main up in strong winds. Works pretty good. I did find out that it's good to have at least a reefed main up while motoring in bad conditions because if the motor quits, I might not be able to set the main because of the motion once the boat goes broadside. I have two reef points in my new Hyde sail, so I'll probable have the second one tied in if I ever have to do that again.
Ix

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by mastreb » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:13 pm

I had a situation once where a tank had run out of gas just as I shut the motor off to clear kelp, and then I couldn't get it restarted and didn't think of the tank. We were drifting towards rocks, and I had to panick release the roller-furler line. The Genny billowed out and powered the boat up almost instantly, saving me a hull repair and an (even more) embarrassing story.

So yeah, sails are still important.

My tests with motor-sailing thus far have yielded disappointing results regarding fuel savings. I think the winds were probably too light to make much difference (6 knots beam wind while doing five nots results in ... not much).

But "motor-sailors" (passagemakers designed to both sail and motor at the same time) have recently become very popular with the trans-oceanic crowd. Their rigs are smaller and more easily handled, and they have much greater range than pure powerboats. And they can self-rescue in the event of engine failure or fuel exhaustion.

It's a reaction against the onerous direction sail-racing rules have taken the sport and the technology in my opinion. There are a lot of other things that matter besides just speed.

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by seahouse » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:03 pm

To take full advantage of motor sailing the throttle and sails need to be carefully balanced with each other. Have done this a few times for fun, not on the Mac yet, though.

It's not as critical with outboards like we have, I believe, but diesels in particular do not run well when not under load - and can be damaged if run without sufficient load- I have heard from a reliable source. (But no internal combustion engine does, really, including ours). So sufficient engine load needs to be maintained - but of course, too much throttle and you deflate the sails if there's not enough wind for it.
:wink:

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by kurz » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:21 pm

seahouse wrote:To take full advantage of motor sailing
Well there is one question: How much heeling is alowed with our outboards while powering? Can too much heeling not make a problem to the oil-system?

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by BOAT » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:39 pm

Nope.

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by seahouse » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:09 pm

kurz wrote:
seahouse wrote:To take full advantage of motor sailing
Well there is one question: How much heeling is alowed with our outboards while powering? Can too much heeling not make a problem to the oil-system?
This should not be a problem with any 2-stroke engine, unless extreme. This might be a problem with some older (maybe even antique) 4-cycle outboard engines. This is very much a concern on larger boats with diesel engines (wet sump), like the one I mentioned doing it on above (a Beneteau), which is probably which prompted your question Kurz?
:wink:

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by Dimitri-2000X-Tampa » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:18 am

Wow, hadn't looked at this thread in a few weeks and it sure has gone off topic! And Kevin, if you are going to make claims like that...you need to post some pictures to prove it! :D :wink: :evil:

But regarding the suggestion of a Hobie 33, very cool looking boat that I didn't know existed. But seeing as I can stand up in my 26x cabin (at least in the rear section), 48 inch headroom does not sound too appealing in a 33 foot boat. Sure is fast though...probably a fine racing boat, but I love my headroom for cruising.

As for motorsailing, I do it all the time and its a fantastic way to cruise. Like for example, when I cruised from Anna Maria Island down to Stump pass back in 2010, it is about 55 miles or so and I wanted to make it before dark. I could only do around 2-4 knots with the sails, but bumping it up a bit with the motor, was able to do 5-6 and make it just before sundown. I wouldn't have made it on wind alone. And the sails are still driving too as evidenced by the much better fuel economy. I think I burned like 3 gallons on my 50HP doing that many miles...try to do that without the sails up.

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by kurz » Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:38 am

seahouse wrote:
kurz wrote:
seahouse wrote:To take full advantage of motor sailing
Well there is one question: How much heeling is alowed with our outboards while powering? Can too much heeling not make a problem to the oil-system?
This should not be a problem with any 2-stroke engine, unless extreme. This might be a problem with some older (maybe even antique) 4-cycle outboard engines. This is very much a concern on larger boats with diesel engines (wet sump), like the one I mentioned doing it on above (a Beneteau), which is probably which prompted your question Kurz?
:wink:
Yes I asked about my Mercury 60HP outboard 2011. Why it is no problem, do they not have wet sump oil seservoir? At least I could control oil pressure in the display maybe.

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Re: Tattoo Yachts

Post by kmclemore » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:21 am

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa wrote:And Kevin, if you are going to make claims like that...you need to post some pictures to prove it! :D :wink: :evil:
Well, sorry to disappoint, but I'm afraid you'll just have to use your imagination.... :)

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