Why can't the M significantly out sail the X

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Duane Dunn, Allegro
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Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:17 pm

Over 300 is where it belongs. You have to watch the lists and make sure they are specifically refering to a X or M. The older 26 classics, particularly the 26D are very fast boats. They will beat all the Hunter and Catalina trailerables. A low number listed as MacGregor 26 is most likely refering to a classic 26, not a X or M.

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baldbaby2000
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Post by baldbaby2000 » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:33 pm

Yes the classic 26 is a fast boat and people confuse the numbers a lot. I'm guessing our 26M deserves about a 240 just from our sailing around with other boats and noting the relative speeds.

I think any boat with a rotating mast is going to be a little more of a hassle; I guess I'm just used to that. I don't notice ours as being any worse than others I've sailed on that have rotating masts. I have suspected that the halyard leading aft may interfere with proper rotation but I'll have to test that theory. We have the bronze washers at the base so we don't have the earlier problem with the nylon washers.

BB

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Richard O'Brien
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you would do better to hold your tongue , perhaps

Post by Richard O'Brien » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:32 pm

After searching for Macgregor PHRF X and M on the internet. i found This comment, "whatever it means"? on a french site. They seem to be arguing the virtues of mac's very much in the same way this board does:

Macgregor! I even dare appell�that one., one..., one... sailing? (already heard here)
Moreover, it is not on the lake Ouareau but on the malicious river. Oh it. Some are dumb. Others try to find the error. It is surely the system. Not it is the skipper it is..., it is... good it is for that that this Macgregor gained. That hurt to see a boat honni gaining races. It is like discovering that the small Emile, the scapegoat, that which one always ridiculed at the school is black belt in karate. All times that one made fun of him and that one could have eaten all one of them. You are better to hold you quiet. If it were necessary that Emile jumps a stage coach! In any case Emile it was my front chum. He is it always.
Marcay as this board.:

Moe
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Post by Moe » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:46 pm


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Divecoz
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While sailing with Dan

Post by Divecoz » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:36 pm

While sailing with Dan last week off the coast of Cozumel :) . . I asked him what difference the rotating mast might make ? We BTW were busy sailing a Catalina 27 . Dan felt it should make it sail faster in less wind and easier for a new sailor to attain proper luff and then began to try and show how it could work. He felt keeping the proper luff would be easier from the get go but . . .he added that after sailing for awhile you/we / I would gain experience and that would over ride that initial advantage.
We talked for quite a while and in the end I felt good about the choice I had made in the MacGregor . Dan's words here not mine .
"Lots of people put down the MacGregor due to jealousy. You guys can and have sailed those boats everywhere there is to sail or just about (he laughed) and you sail your boat. . . . not a rental ..." He and Bob assured me that in all their years of sailing they have never heard of a hull failing on a MacGregor. Bob a very salty guy who has sailed all over the world on his boat assured me , I will love learning to sail on the Mac and the extra time/hours / days and weeks I enjoy camping on the little guy are an added plus and when YOUR done. . . pull it out take it home along with the money you could have left with the Harbor Master and he then pointed to his boat and laughed .
It was a fun day BTW in February and 84 degrees blue sky rolling seas and 12 to 18 mph winds. When it/the sailing was over we sat and had a few beers and talked . They reminded me a bought a cruiser not a pocket rocket and the most important thing . . should be when you buy any new toy . . .when you walk away do you always HAVE to turn around and admire it. As long as your doing that you have made the right choice.

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216 PHRF

Post by normo » Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:32 pm

The 26X that established the So Cal 216 PHRF had his boat for sale on this site. I called him and my recollection of the conversation was that he won the Newport to Ensanada race in his class and that wasn't supposed to be. Don't hold me to this but as I recall he said that there was one portion of this race where you could motor and that was his key to success. The So Cal PHRF group was really PO'd about the result and took action to make sure this could never happen again by assigning a 216 PHRF to the 26X.

Our sailing club has weekly beer can races and I have begun participating with the 26X. Most races have been held in moderate to high wind conditions so the lack of a genoa has not been a deciding factor. The Mac has finished dead last by a bunch in the 5 races I have participated in. I also have a Catalina 22 all tricked out that we race in a very competitive one design fleet, club handicap races and the same beer can races. I can tell you that the Mac can't hold a candle to the C22 which has a 270 PHRF rating. I suspect the 359 may be on the stingy side. I hope to have this scoped out, at least with the jib, in a couple of months.

I have owned a couple catamarans and the rotating mast is a proven benefit but on many occasions I tried to evaluate the change in boat speed using a digital knotmeter when the mast was moved from rotated to centered. I didn't note a perceptable change but over a one hour race I'm sure it would make a difference. Begs the question: If a rotating mast is so effective why haven't other major monohull manufacturers embraced this feature? P.S. years ago I had a Venture 17 and stuck a teflon washer under the mast so it would rotate. Really thought I had a hot rod. Ah- youth.

The centerboard trunk does create turbulence which penalizes performance compared to a daggerboard design. Many small performance cats and the Santana 21 monohull use gaskets to seal the cavity. Racers claim these gaskets are important. If this change resulted in a huge improvement it would have been documented and the results advertised. Look at the wake of a Mac when you are going to windward heeled 20 degrees. That turbulence, which is caused by the hull design, is what makes the boat slow. I suspect it far outweighs most everything else.

Most cruisers dismiss small changes in boat speed but if you sail for 8-10 hours giving up a .1 knot here, a .1 knot there, a .1 knot everywhere, you can easily add an extra hour to your arrival time.

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Post by Rich Smith » Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:50 am

Hey Divecoz - I had to smile at the final part of your post...I've had my :macx: for 4 years now and, every time I go sailing, I still turn around while walking back to the car to take one last look at her!

That brought a smile to my face during this cold, cold winter!

Cheers!

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Divecoz
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YOur Welcome Richard Smith

Post by Divecoz » Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:55 pm

Kind of fits with everything I have,... that I hold dear .

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Post by Rolf » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:49 am

With the excellent motor boat performance from my 90, I've become very anti-sailing in my Mac 26x unless I've got at least 15 knots of wind.

This past weekend I cruised at 18 knots north 10 miles up the Palos Verdes Peninsula and went fishing for a couple of hours trolling there, sped back at 22 knots and sailed 10 miles in and out of LA harbor in the late afternoon when a strong 20 knot wind kicked up.

Tacking upwind in these conditions, the Mac has very respectable performance, and I sailed using genoa only (Kept dodger/connector/ 6'4" bimini in place. Buddy and I averaged 4.5 knots, with bursts of almost 6.

With this setup the boat tracks like on rails with only significant heel coming during occasional even stronger wind gusts (>20 knots).

Back and forth we went, with other "real" sailboats (Catalinas and Hunters) pulling away ever so slightly, mostly due to our extra tacks (reality of the c/b) . I doubt the c/b trunk seriously degrades performance at slow anyway sailboat speeds. I also finally discovered why autopilot is a sailor's dream -- makes tacking, sail raising/lowering, and obviously holding course piece of cake.

The mac 26x is no raceboat, but its everything else.

Rolf

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mtc
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quibble

Post by mtc » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:37 am

Forgive me gentlemen, as a new member I may be out of bounds here. I've read through almost all the posts regarding the M - I've ordered one. Wanted a new boat, liked the M, had the cash. I was bidding on a Catalina 38 sloop here in Pensacola a week before Ivan the Terrible came through and moved the marina where the Cat was docked. She was destroyed, and I was depressed. Most of the marinas here are wiped out, as were my dreams of getting another boat.

So, get a trailer boat! Hmmm, the Mac looks good, sails good, appears to have good design, and theres one in Mobile AL. I liked the boat a lot - not because the X wasnt good, or the M was better; the M just fit my needs. Every boat is a compromise.

Here's my question - why all the back and forth trashing comments about the M/X? They're both great boats, both from the same designer; both reflect the current mindset of Macgregor. This bantering reminds me of the Jeep YJ vs. the TJ. Same thing, same design improvements, same fierce loyalty. 'The YJ was the last of the 'real man's' jeep because it has leaf spring suspension!' 'The YJ is the better Jeep because it has finally outgrown the crappy leaf springs and been fitted with coils!' Theyre both good. (I have a YJ and would have bought a newer TJ, but it wasnt budgeted)

The M's faster, no the X's better, wait, the M has. . . oh yea, well the X has . . .

Is this being done for fun? Or are these conversations serious? Should the M be faster? Probably, at least due to the design. Is it? Well, probably, but I doubt it's anything that can be measured as compared to a Honda 350 and a Honda 1000.

Point is, we love our boats, think they're the best, we put a great deal of love into them, and are very loyal. Can't we stop bashing someone else's boat? Am I the only one who finds this annoying?

I offer these comments with all due respect and hope I haven't offended anyone, as I said, I am a newbie and want to be accepted to the group to exchange great ideas and experiences. I rely on these boards to stay up with my peers and continue to learn every time I read your posts, which are great by the way (except the bashing). All I was asking was if we could reef this type of negativity.

Perhaps we need another folder for M and X frat houses so the bashing can continue in protected waters. At least then, when I want a good fight, I'll go in there.

Michael

(will I get my boat keyed now?)

Frank C

Post by Frank C » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:49 am

Point is, we love our boats, think they're the best, we put a great deal of love into them, and are very loyal. Can't we stop bashing someone else's boat? Am I the only one who finds this annoying?
Michael,
Pardon my confusion but I just re-read this entire thread. I guess you must be referring to other threads because I don't see it here. :|

As for other threads, I've seen little that seems like bashing. There are numerous, very obvious differences between X and M. Any discussion of dagger vs. centerboard must acknowledge sharp distinctions in function & operation, and related opinions. I have an X, I prefer the centerboard and I wouldn't buy a dagger-boat unless it delivered some other, compelling features to offset my CB preference. I'm definitely not intending to bash the M by expressing the difference and my preference. Perhaps you perceive my comment otherwise?

Anyhow, your posting is perfectly courteous and rational ... not out of bounds at all. I guess I'm just not agreeing. Congrats on your new 26M.
8)

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