3rd reef?

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whgoffrn
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3rd reef?

Post by whgoffrn »

Well I guess I finally got caught out in open water about 5 miles off the coast of Islamorada in a storm and it makes me wonder how the MacGregor commercial was able to weather 50mph winds and 18 foot seas .... I got caught in a storm and I seen it coming so put 1 reef in main and only abo u t 1/2 or 1/4 of the jib out and rounded up a few times ....if I had to guess I'd say the winds were 30 maybe gusts to 40 and waves only about 4 feet with occasional 5 to 6 sets.. and still rounding up so I can't help but wonder how much wind can a mac handle with a 3rd reef for anone who has sent their main off
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sailboatmike
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by sailboatmike »

If your rounding up you dont have enough headsail out to balance the rig, I have sailed in similar conditions with my X and had to adjust the sails until they were balanced, once balanced she sailed beautifully
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kadet
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by kadet »

You were in an :macx: not an :macm:
i.e no traveller, no rotating mast, no deep V hull but a daggerboard trunk to cause drag and not as good rudders to steer with according to Mr. Mac.

The factory mast rake on the :macx: was also greater with the backstay to purposely induce rounding into the wind as a safety feature.

Also the wind readings in the commercial were taken from the top of 60' boats mast, the wind down in little :macm: land was probably closer to 40mph or 34 knots looking at the waves in the commercial there was no foam of spindrift so was probably closer to 25-30 with the odd gust to 35.

As was said too much main, not enough headsail ease the sheet or reef some more. And you must compare apples with apples not apples and oranges 8)
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BOAT
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by BOAT »

Yeah it's true - the M boat works fine in 30 knot winds - I have no real trouble actually sailing in those high winds - the problem is the sail handling - the main really flaps in the wind when you are lowering it to get a reef - I can't do a reef from the cockpit - I release the halyard then I go to the mast (sliding on my butt) and then I pull on the sail until I can get the cringle into the hook, and then I pull the halyard back up from the mast bass and tie it off there - then I slid back to the cockpit and take care of the outhaul. The boat sails real good like that in winds over 30 knots but the bottom of the main sort of flopps around in the wind unless you tie off the leftover sail through those little holes in the sail. I usually only tie off one or two of them. I am lazy. The boat does not round up on me - it sails real good - I'm just glad 30 knot wind is really rare over here.
whgoffrn
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by whgoffrn »

Maybe I'm under estimating the wind speed then .... with 1/2 the jib and the 1 factory reef it heeled 40 degrees before rounding up ...any more jib out and it would have just heeled over faster......and I didn't realize the m boats sailed that much better than xs .... I knew they were slightly faster by a Knott or so but didn't realize they also handled storm conditions much better
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kurz
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by kurz »

BOAT wrote:Yeah it's true - the M boat works fine in 30 knot winds
Well this is easy to say.
To understand this information it is importand to say in which angle to the wind the :macm: sails so well in heavy winds.

By the way I don't believe that the :macm: sails so much better than the :macx: as it was menthioned. Both boats are similar so the have similar physics...
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sailboatmike
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by sailboatmike »

If its a factory sail with the one and only reef in it then the main was not much more than a hanky at best, the only thing I can think of is maybe the foot wasnt pulled tight, as I said I have got caught out in similar conditions with the old baggy factory main, pulled it down to the factory reef and made sure the foot was tight and she sailed beautifully, the question is, did you have the main cleated in or were you playing it and letting it out in the gusts?

These boat are too small and the ballast isnt low enough to cleat in the main in those conditions, you need to ease it through the gusts, I know its a handful when you are getting thrown around a bit but it makes it way more comfortable, I rarely sail with the main cleated in unless the conditions are light
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by BOAT »

whgoffrn wrote:Maybe I'm under estimating the wind speed then .... with 1/2 the jib and the 1 factory reef it heeled 40 degrees before rounding up ...any more jib out and it would have just heeled over faster......and I didn't realize the m boats sailed that much better than xs .... I knew they were slightly faster by a Knott or so but didn't realize they also handled storm conditions much better
See, it's your comment about the 40 degrees that is a hint to me - I have never sailed the X boat - and I have been making a lot of speculations on this site about how well the X boat sails on it's side based only on comments by X drivers, and every time I do I get roundly trounced on by a bunch of other X drivers that insist there is no difference - yet again, here we are with yet another comment by an X driver who claims his boat is rounding up at 40 degrees.

That is the key statement - "it heeled 40 degrees before rounding up"

I have read such things from lots of people in the X boat - what your saying has been repeated many times by many others. I can only speculate on the reasons - again, I have never sailed the X.

There is a FACT I can prove without question and have many many times posted videos and picture here that I REGULARLY sail my boat OVER 45 DEGREES ALL THE TIME! I can lay down and relax and let the AP sail the boat and 50 degree heel is not an issue - the boat does not round up! Is this because I sail an M boat? I have no idea, but I can speculate on what causes the issue on any boat:

The first thing I would look at is the sail plan: How much of the force on the sails is in front of the daggerboard? I have a daggerboard - I don't know if the centerboard is a lot different, but on my boat the first thing i would calculate is how much of the working force of my sails is in FRONT of the mast and how much is BEHIND and then make a careful observation of where my daggerboard is under the mast.

My Aquarius 23 had the Main Sheet Block on the aft - that made the block smaller and faster because it needed less turns to pull in the boom because it was attached at the very end of the boom where the best leverage was but created another issue because this gave the main tremendous power to move the back of the boat around. If my Aquarius hit 30 knot winds without a reef the back of the main would push the back of the boat around. (It would turn the boat into the wind) a nice safety feature of a Peter Barrett designed family boat but a PITA if your trying to sail in 30 knot winds. You were required to reef thus moving the main more forward.

It actually could be as simple as just moving the Main Sheet block from the pedestal to the cabin top - Yes, it's very possible that the back of the boat is getting pushed around the keel, (daggerboard? centerboard?) because the boom is connected too far back - it might have nothing at all to do with the hull. On the M boat the Main Sheet Block is BOLTED thru the deck THRU the liner all the way down to the hull at the battery box with a heavy steel ladder because there is so much force from the sail pulling the boat thru the water that is concentrated at the Main Sheet Block. Can you see how if that connection got over balanced because it was too far aft it would force the aft to pull around the daggerboard? If there were a way to move the Block about 4 feet forward it would put less pressure on the aft section of the boat.

That's where i would start - I would look at the connections from the power source (the sails) to the boat. Is it being pulled thru the water from the front? The back? the middle? and where is that force applied? In front of the keel or behind it?
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Seapup
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by Seapup »

I got caught in a storm and I seen it coming so put 1 reef in main and only abo u t 1/2 or 1/4 of the jib out and rounded up a few times ....if I had to guess I'd say the winds were 30 maybe gusts to 40 and waves only about 4 feet with occasional 5 to 6 sets.. and still rounding up so I can't help but wonder how much wind can a mac handle with a 3rd reef for anone who has sent their main off
In my experience planning to sail while a summer storm passes over on the east coast is not a realistic or appropriate tactic for a light displacement sailboat. Typically the storms are short lived and have winds that will shift from the prevailing wind and waves to horizontal rain and unpredictable gusts that could be 20 or easily 60. Dropping sail, securing everything, and holding position into the wind with the motor is a more prudent option. After going through a few this way it becomes a normal drill while cruising.

Sailing in nice consistent heavy winds with a steady sea state is an entirely different situation. In that situation pick the boat speed you want and then match sails to suit.

Side story to share that happened at my marina earlier this month.

Image

Ok. I was going to port hop. Leaving Norfolk. Weather called for scattered thunderstorms. Well a thunderstorm came. Pow! Like that it starts gusting BIG time. Immediately furl jib but rollerfurler has jammed cause of some slack in furling line has looped over tight, and is stuck. Cant go out to fix cause boat is so badly heeled. Cant go into wind to furl main, even with motor cause the waves keep pushing me off. Must reduce sail now! Ease mainsheet and start to furl main. Pow! It ripps. Well i still gotta reduce sail, so i furl it up. Then go up and fix jib. Pow, the ring that holds the sheets to the jib gives way. I hunker down again and wait for weather to blow over. Now im like 200 miles out, i had spoke to coast guard and they said i could abandon ship and they would get me.
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BOAT
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by BOAT »

Hmmm, the boat looks like a Hunter?

Getting back to the rounding up - here is a quote from Roger on the issue:
"With the new hull and rudder shapes, the boat has less tendency to round up into the wind when heeled far over."


So maybe it's the rudders, but what do i know - I can only go by what the guy said who actually built the boat.

I'm glad that guy in the Hunter got rescued.
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sailboatmike
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by sailboatmike »

Maybe the centerboard gives greater lateral resistance than the swing keel to rounding up due to its area.
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BOAT
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by BOAT »

I'm really not sure what it could be - we need tomfoolery to do one of those cad drawing things that shows what happens when the hull is on it's side - it's a mystery!

For those that experience the phenomenon I would ask them if it's possible to fight against the rounding up with the helm, and if possible, how much helm was required to keep the boat from rounding up - that would be another helpful hint to solve the mystery.
whgoffrn
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by whgoffrn »

Well if it matters at all to answer some questions as to my boat set up for speculation.... I had both inner and outer stays at 300lbs so not much bend in the mast to flatten out the main and it has the factory rake .....boom vang luff foot halyard all tight on fairly new crispy Doyle sails as I could make them trying my best to flatten it out. ... I had the boat pointed as far into the wind as I could as to attempt to slow it down and still doing 7 knots pointing into the wind with very little sail up ....and it was my buddy steering so I could tend to the sails but yeah the main and jib were cleated in....was his first time on a sailboat and I guess he got rattled and forgot to let the sheets go when it rounded up during the gusts
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dlandersson
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by dlandersson »

The hulls are not the same.

X has a 5% "V"

M has a 15% "V".
kurz wrote:
BOAT wrote:Yeah it's true - the M boat works fine in 30 knot winds
Well this is easy to say.
To understand this information it is importand to say in which angle to the wind the :macm: sails so well in heavy winds.

By the way I don't believe that the :macm: sails so much better than the :macx: as it was menthioned. Both boats are similar so the have similar physics...
whgoffrn
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Re: 3rd reef?

Post by whgoffrn »

And seapup I kinda purposely was trying to get caught in the storm as practice .... I've gotten good at avoiding and running from storms this time was more about how to handle getting caught so I did it on purpose to test out some things..... had the winds picked up 20 or 30 more mph I was close enough with 15-20 foot depths to anchor ....35lb Mantus anchor chained to the trailer hook and bridle to boat cleats backed up the mast base plate ......and if I got drug out too deep to anchor I bought a Fiorentino shark anchor drogue before leaving and straps to hook to mast base plate ......... so sounds kinda crazy to aim for a nasty storm but I felt like I needed to see what worked and what didn't
The horizontal rain was the worst part of it....couldnt see anything with rain hitting directly in your face....i had bought some ski goggles but they did very little to help so I took them off ....back to the drawing board on that idea
But yeah i agree the storm was a bit much for the boat but good practice
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