Trouble on tacking

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Alaskapest1
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Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Trouble on tacking

Post by Alaskapest1 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:47 pm

I have a 26 m 2004, this is the second year on this 26. A friend thought the jib maybe over powering the rudders. A tack will take us almost a 360 or at least to a wind at our back. I have replaced the bearing on the rotating mast and adjusted the stanchions to equal tension. Rake is froward is about 6 inch forward. I'm a true newbie!!

This can happen in high winds or low. It is a little better when we use half jib but it doesn't solve the problem.

Do you have any thoughts on what to try next ?

It can be a little nerve racking when I'm trying to turn in to the weather.

Thanks

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NiceAft
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by NiceAft » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:27 pm

First, as you are coming about, let the jib fill and billow out before you pull the leeward jib sheet, and be certain the now windward sheet is loose.
Second, As the jib is coming across, start rapidly correcting to windward. It just takes timing, and a feel for the boat.

And pay attention to the telltails.
Ray ~~_/)~~

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Dougiestyle
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Dougiestyle » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:04 pm

I own a :macx: and the manual recommends the mast rake be set at 94 degrees on the :macx: , not sure what the :macm: . This has a lot to do with the balance and control of the boat. Im new on the :macx: and someone will chime in on this with more experience.
Dougiestyle
1998 26X , Nissan 50D, "Water Buffalo"

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Jimmyt
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Jimmyt » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:04 pm

If I understood your post, you said the mast is raked FORWARD 6"? If so, your boat will constantly be trying to turn downwind, as the part of the main sail in front of the mast base is essentially acting with the foresail.

Your mast should be raked aft a bit.

Image

Now, when you say a "tack" causes you to almost do a 360, I'm lost. Most folks have trouble just powering through a tack when learning. So, are you turning up into the wind and getting spun due to back-winding the foresail? In other words, the instant your bow crosses the wind direction, are you releasing the jib sheet and starting to take up on the opposite sheet? If you are waiting, with the windward sheet tight, that is, at least part of, your problem.

In any event, don't let the boat come around and jibe.

Turning to weather, or into the wind is a "tack". Turning downwind is a "jibe". You should be tacking, not jibing, unless the wind speed is very low. Jibing is something that you need to know how to do, but you shouldn't be doing it in a blow. It is dangerous for the crew and hard on the rig if you don't know what you're doing.

Please add a little more clarification so we can zero in on what's going on.
Jimmyt
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Alaskapest1
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Alaskapest1 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:05 pm

First, it is more like 270 degrees rather than 360. The bow always wants to point downwind regardless of tiller position.
Yes, it is on tacking. We try not to jibe in high winds.

To get our mast raked aft, we would have to extend the length of the rolling furler I believe. What is the best way to accomplish this task?

Also, as new sailors, we do need to increase our skills. However, we have sailed a 16 ft day sailor for years and have taken a class on another boat and have not encountered this issue.

Thank you for all your comments! Keep them coming!

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NiceAft
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by NiceAft » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:53 pm

Might this help? CDI roller furler.
Ray ~~_/)~~

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Jimmyt
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Jimmyt » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:35 pm

Photos of your furler connection may be helpful. Also, are you connecting at the right spot? Again, photos might be helpful.

If your mast is significantly raked forward, the rig could be so imbalanced that steering may be difficult. So, you need to address the mast rake. You may have the wrong forestay length, or some furler component may have been backyard engineered.

In any event, it's going to take some pictures to figure out what's going on.

But, no worries. I have the same boat and mine doesn't have this problem. It's just a setup issue. It will be fine once the setup is right.
Jimmyt
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Tomfoolery
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Tomfoolery » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:32 am

Alaskapest1 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:47 pm
Rake is froward is about 6 inch forward.
It doesn't help that the manual isn't very clear on this. The :macx: manual shows an inordinate amount of rake to the rear, but the :macm: manual mentions using a level plus making sure the ballast is full and the design waterline is parallel with the actual water, then gives a measurement from the MRS holes to some point at the bow with no regard to anything being 'level'. So that doesn't help much. But I've never seen a sailboat with positive mast rake like that.

When I come about in my :macx: , I leave the jib sheet in the cam cleat until the bow has passed through the wind, as it helps pull it through. Then I cut it loose and secure it (quickly) on the new lee side. Not too much rudder, or they'll just stall. But fast, or the boat will stall and be caught 'in irons'. Once it comes about I have to spin the wheel quickly or it'll go too far, and it's easy enough to go way too far.

I've removed most of the rake from my mast, by the way, as it would round up too easily with that much rake in it. But you have the opposite problem.

I've never sailed an :macm: , but there are lots of very experienced :macm: skippers here, so one way or another I'm sure you'll get what you're looking for.

This has the 2003 manual and the 2007 manual, but the 2007 won't download. https://macgregorsailors.com/resources.html
Tom
Be seeing you . . .

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Jimmyt
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Jimmyt » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:41 am

As Tomfoolery posts, I "back wind" the jib on my M to come through the tack as well. Most new sailers have trouble coming through the tack. The fact that you overshoot when tacking an M, almost guarantees that mast rake is excessive.

In my younger days, I did a bit of wind surfing. Steering a wind surfer is almost entirely done with mast rake. Rake the mast forward to turn down wind; rake it back to turn up wind. The board has a dagger board and a fixed rear fin, and adjusting the mast rake steers it easily - even with the fixed rear fin.

If you have any pics of the boat from the side with the rig up, those would be helpful too.

You may want to examine your forestay end-to-end and get a length measurement. Then, we have something we can easily check for gremlins.

I tensioned my rig a few months back, in the driveway. It took as long to get the boat level as it did to tension the rig (driveway is not level). But, once you get the waterline level, and get it level from port to starboard, you can use the main halyard for a plumb bob to see how the mast looks. You can use a carpenter's level on it also. Then, you can compare that to the measurements in the manual. If you can get those three checks to show vertical, or just a hair aft rake, it should sail better.

If this is a used, new-to-you boat, you may have to figure out what the previous owner screwed up to make it rake forward (assuming you haven't made a rigging error). Forestay length, different furler, missing component in furler connection, new mast (different hound location), or any number of other issues could be your problem.

My mast is downstairs, so I'll be glad to take measurements for you to compare to. Also, you can call Blue Water Yachts. If you need any new components, they've likely got them.
Jimmyt
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NiceAft
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by NiceAft » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:18 pm

NiceAft wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:27 pm
First, as you are coming about, let the jib fill and billow out before you pull the leeward jib sheet, and be certain the now windward sheet is loose.
Second, As the jib is coming across, start rapidly correcting to windward. It just takes timing, and a feel for the boat.

And pay attention to the telltails.
I guess I should have given this a name.....Back Winding :o :D
Ray ~~_/)~~

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Jimmyt
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Jimmyt » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:31 pm

NiceAft wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:18 pm
[quote=NiceAft post_id=343135 time=<a href="tel:1593473231">1593473231</a> user_id=748]
First, as you are coming about, let the jib fill and billow out before you pull the leeward jib sheet, and be certain the now windward sheet is loose.
Second, As the jib is coming across, start rapidly correcting to windward. It just takes timing, and a feel for the boat.

And pay attention to the telltails.
I guess I should have given this a name.....Back Winding :o :D
[/quote]

...Not to be confused with Break Winding.... 8)
Jimmyt
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Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River

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NiceAft
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by NiceAft » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:50 pm

:| Jimmy, “Back Winding”, that is what you named it, isn’t it :)
Ray ~~_/)~~

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Jimmyt
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Re: Trouble on tacking

Post by Jimmyt » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:42 pm

NiceAft wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:50 pm
:| Jimmy, “Back Winding”, that is what you named it, isn’t it :)
Actually, it's a term that is used here - I didn't create it.

I was just cracking wise with the Break Winding remark. Trying to inject a bit of humor. :)
Jimmyt
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26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River

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