Longer Boom and bigger Mainsail

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Greg
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Longer Boom and bigger Mainsail

Post by Greg » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:15 pm

:macx:

Has anyone else thought the mainsail foot on the X looks a little short?

I have always thought that the X sail seemed a little short for the boat, and after purchasing and sailing one this year, I'm kicking around the idea of what would be involved with the modification and how it would effect performance.

I think it would help the boat sail tighter to the wind and maybe assist in tacking by giving it more of a kick in the rear. It would need more reefs, maybe 4 to give more flexibility for wind conditions.

I have put the mast and boom in the basement for winter storage, so an exact length would be speculation, but maybe even with the back edge of the helm seat?
Maybe I just need a good nights sleep?

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TampaMac
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Post by TampaMac » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:58 pm

Airfoils with high aspect ratios, that is length vs. width are more efficient. That is why gliders have long narrow width wings.

When you put a longer boom in place you are lowering the aspect ratio and making it less efficient.

I doubt that making the sail less efficient would help the upwind ability.

You would be adding sail area down low where you I guess would cause less healing. However I know a catamaran manufacturer who claims that the high aspect ratio rigs it uses spill air from puffs better leading to more stability in spite of the taller rig. Who knows.

Moe
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Post by Moe » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:11 pm

Seems to me this would just make the weather helm problem worse. Right?

--
Moe

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Sloop John B
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Post by Sloop John B » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:15 pm

Greg,

Ive had the same thoughts. My boom is too short!
Last edited by Sloop John B on Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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richandlori
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Post by richandlori » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:27 pm

Why not just retrofit the X with a new mast and sails of the M. I can't remember for sure, but I know there is one of our members in florida that has done so?

That seems to be the cleanest way to go?

Rich

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Terry
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More sail

Post by Terry » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:34 pm

The M has a 10'6" boom which I believe is the same as the X but a taller mast 30' vs 28' which gives it an extra 20 sq. ft. and higher aspect ratio. I believe one of the X owners is replacing their mast with an M version so will also be able to have the larger sail. The M mast is also more beefy or stout. If you really want a longer boom, I still have an 18' long section of my mast left at the side of my house, albeit it is somewhat big for a boom. I personally would think twice about playing with the sails since I believe Roger MacGregor has already tried every variation and gave us the best choice he had.

waternwaves
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all things being equal

Post by waternwaves » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:33 pm

Moe, all other things being equal,

moving the main CP aft and increasing the sail force will increase weather helm.

But I know you know, and were joking...

But maybe changing the mast fore to aft position...or making it adustable.... oh yeah.....

now. if we want to talk batteries...lol alas another day....
(another ship and shore fully automatic 3 stage battery charger failure this week)

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Chip Hindes
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Post by Chip Hindes » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:39 am

Terry wrote:The M has a 10'6" boom which I believe is the same as the X but a taller mast 30' vs 28' which gives it an extra 20 sq. ft. and higher aspect ratio.
There's got to be something else going on. If the only difference between the M and X is a 2' longer mast, the calculated difference in sail area would be only 10.5 square feet; BTW the "advertized" difference in sail area is 170 vs 151 or 19 square feet.

In fact, I believe the X boom is only 10', giving a calculated difference in sail area of 17.5 square feet. These are all approximations based on simple geometry; other factors which may contribute to the difference in sail area include fullness of the roach and how high the boom is mounted on the mast.

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TampaMac
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Post by TampaMac » Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:57 am

Chip,

Hope you are wrong as I've been told by the factory that the boom for the X and M are identical.

I hope the M sail I have will fit my X boom.....

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Terry
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Boom Position

Post by Terry » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:19 am

Hey Chip, You've got something right about where the boom is mounted on the mast. I was rafted up with about 10 X's and 2 M's at Sucia in the San Juans and envied some of those with a dodger. While trying to envision a dodger on mine it appeared that the distance from the boom to the cabin top was smaller on my M than the X beside me. Well curiosity got the better of me so I got out a tape measure and measured the distance from the gooseneck to the deck on each model. Sure enough I discovered that there was in fact quite a substantial difference. (a current brain fart is preventing me from remembering the precise distance) Now I wonder how a dodger is going to look, very low profile I expect. Anyway this could account for the square footage difference. I also notice that there is a good 6 inches distance between the clew of the sail and the end of the boom, I use a fairly long line (don't know what that line is called) to tie it off with on the cleat at the end of the boom. I also wonder if the shape of the leach has anything to do with it, it might be fuller on the M sail. Oh, one more thing, 30 feet up is a bit of a distance to sight but it looks to me like there is still another 6 or more inches to pull the sail head up with the halyard once the mainsail is tight.

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Chip Hindes
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Post by Chip Hindes » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:33 am

Tampa Mac wrote:Chip,

Hope you are wrong as I've been told by the factory that the boom for the X and M are identical.
Could well be. I don't have the actual measurement, only the distance scaled off an Autocad drawing; the drawing was in turn created from a scan of the drawings in the original sales brochure, so there are a lot of potential sources of error.

If so, there still has to be something else going on with the stated sail areas. With the same length boom, in order to to get a full 19 square feet additional on the M, the overall height of the sail must be roughly 4' higher; if the mast is only 2', then the boom has to be mounted 2' lower as well. Though it may be lower, I can't believe it's a full 2' lower. So the difference must be made up in a fuller roach. Anybody got any idea if the M roach is way fuller than the X?

I'll put a tape to the boom when I get home tonight and we can answer that part of the question easily.

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Duane Dunn, Allegro
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Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:30 am

For boom height comparison here are a bunch of dodger pictures. They have had to lower and rake the M dodgers quite a bit which must make the entry very tight since you also have to step up an over the seat and traveler at the same time you duck under the lower dodger. Must be like going into a hole, particularly in the case of the narrow inside the winches black dodger Bluewater Yachts is using.

Here is a X with the Bluewater Yachts full enclosure.
Image

Here is a M with the Bluewater Yachts full enclosure
Image

Here is a X with the Dowsar full enclosure (My Boat)
Image

Here is a M with the Dowsar full enclosure
Image
Image

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Jim Bunnell
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Dowsar for 26 M

Post by Jim Bunnell » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:24 am

Duane,

Where did you find information on this set-up? The Dowsar site does not seem to list it.

Thanks,
Jim

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Duane Dunn, Allegro
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Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:59 pm

It seems they don't have their web site updated yet with pictures or pricing but they do have the enclosure available. Mark sent me the pictures of his boat a while ago and asked me to post a mod which I finally got around to. I would guess if you called them they could get you the details. I have a few more bigger pictures which I can email. I'm sure you could contact Mark as well.

It's a very nice enclosure. They high bimini is larger than on the X version giving more sun protection. The wider dodger looks like a much better design than the Bluewater one which is just plain strange where the narrow dodger connects to the wide bimini. It's also cool how Dowsar has incorporated nice rounded rear hip seats into the design, at most likely extra cost, and the enclosure wraps right around these seats.

Over all the Dowsar enclosure flows with the boat lines real nice.

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Chip Hindes
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Post by Chip Hindes » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:18 pm

OK, so I measured the X boom and it is in fact 10'6". So any guesses as to how the M sail is a full 19 square feet larger than the X?

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