Making rudders

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Danhux
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Making rudders

Post by Danhux » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:53 pm

Has anyone attempted to make their own rudders? We had a great day of sailing today, while backing in the driveway, I lost sight of the mailbox, sure enough I found it with one of the rudders. It snapped off at the hinge and it didn’t take much. A new rudder is expensive, is it possible for a DIYer to make a reliable rudder?

Thanks in advance

Wayne nicol
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Re: Making rudders

Post by Wayne nicol » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:04 pm

you can use foam , like they use for making surfoards and boat building, and glass over it- but you might want to weight the bottom a wee bit, to make it easier to submerge them and cleat in place.

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Chinook
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Re: Making rudders

Post by Chinook » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:16 pm

I'm pretty sure replacement rudders and dagger boards for the 26M are available through Blue Water Yachts.

MinnesotaMikeMac
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Re: Making rudders

Post by MinnesotaMikeMac » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:53 pm

I made one out of a treated 2x8 I believe a couple of years ago yes it was crude and it floated but could get it into position with a little tug on the line, best staying home wishing I had a perfect one.

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Divecoz
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Re: Making rudders

Post by Divecoz » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:11 pm

A quality job is probably far beyond your present skill level.. Have You Ever carved anything out of styren as large as a rudder? That rudder is pretty thin is that really your choice for base material ? Sure wouldnt be mine neither would a piece of 2x8..
Competently working in Fiberglas and at a Professional Skill Level only seems easy, to those who are accomplished at it and those who haven't a clue. BTW You really need to be able to Match the factory rudder.... pretty dang close.. Close enough that if we all came by your place, we couldn't tell for sure which was yours and which was Rogers.. But hey you maybe you'll prove me wrong first time out of the box.. GREAT....And it "LOOKS GOOD" ... But is it up to the stress loads it will be under , most of the time its being used. How will you know when enough is enough or NOT enough ... Honestly and I am no pro and I haven't seen your rudder but I would Entertain the thought repairing the broken one LONG before I gave even a moments thought of making one of my own and I have done some Fiberglas work and have a couple friends who do it and my brother is really talented at it .. JMHO :)

whgoffrn
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Re: Making rudders

Post by whgoffrn » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:21 pm

If u have an x I'll sell u one for half price of new...I have wood rudders now and so the fiberglass one is just taking up space

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sailboatmike
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Re: Making rudders

Post by sailboatmike » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:22 pm

Divecoz wrote: BTW You really need to be able to Match the factory rudder.... pretty dang close.. Close enough that if we all came by your place, we couldn't tell for sure which was yours and which was Rogers.. But hey you maybe you'll prove me wrong first time out of the box..
This is the exact problem Rogers Rudders just DON'T WORK as they should!.
Why would you want to recreate something exactly that doesn't do the job intended properly??

Rudder Craft (https://ruddercraft.com ) have made a tidy sum of money from providing better performing rudders and centerboards for the Macgregors and their rudders are not the same as the Macgregor OEM design.

The main issue I see with Mac rudders is they are not profiled correctly to NACA 12 (Boats around 6knts) for one and secondly they don't take into account the pretty flat bottoms of the power sailor designs. This is particularly apparent on the early X design rudder which just isn't deep enough and thus much of the rudder is operating in the turbulent water cause by the boats stern which means the first 4 or 5 inches is doing very little except being a spacer for getting the small part of the rudder that is doing the work below the turbulence, thus the actual WORKING area is very small. I believe step one to improving the OEM rudder design is to make it longer to give you more working area under the water. I would think around 4 inches would greatly improve the handling.

Of course this has it's drawbacks, such as requiring more water before the rudders can be fully deployed and increasing stress on the rudder pivots, the hull at the attachment points and of course the actual rudder itself being stressed at the point that its connected to the boat. All of these can be simply worked around with a little thought, ideas such as facing the top part of the rudder near the pivot hole with 3/64" or 1mm Aluminium on each side, beefing up the rudder brackets and putting some decent backing plates and fender washers on the inside of the hull at the attachment points. If you really want to go full hog you could even redesign the the rudder brackets to make the rudders dagger style rather than the current swing design.

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dlandersson
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Re: Making rudders

Post by dlandersson » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:33 am

Very interesting link.

What is/where does Macgregor OEM Rudder Castle Stiffener Plate go? :|
sailboatmike wrote:
Divecoz wrote: BTW You really need to be able to Match the factory rudder.... pretty dang close.. Close enough that if we all came by your place, we couldn't tell for sure which was yours and which was Rogers.. But hey you maybe you'll prove me wrong first time out of the box..
This is the exact problem Rogers Rudders just DON'T WORK as they should!.
Why would you want to recreate something exactly that doesn't do the job intended properly??

Rudder Craft (https://ruddercraft.com ) have made a tidy sum of money from providing better performing rudders and centerboards for the Macgregors and their rudders are not the same as the Macgregor OEM design.

The main issue I see with Mac rudders is they are not profiled correctly to NACA 12 (Boats around 6knts) for one and secondly they don't take into account the pretty flat bottoms of the power sailor designs. This is particularly apparent on the early X design rudder which just isn't deep enough and thus much of the rudder is operating in the turbulent water cause by the boats stern which means the first 4 or 5 inches is doing very little except being a spacer for getting the small part of the rudder that is doing the work below the turbulence, thus the actual WORKING area is very small. I believe step one to improving the OEM rudder design is to make it longer to give you more working area under the water. I would think around 4 inches would greatly improve the handling.

Of course this has it's drawbacks, such as requiring more water before the rudders can be fully deployed and increasing stress on the rudder pivots, the hull at the attachment points and of course the actual rudder itself being stressed at the point that its connected to the boat. All of these can be simply worked around with a little thought, ideas such as facing the top part of the rudder near the pivot hole with 3/64" or 1mm Aluminium on each side, beefing up the rudder brackets and putting some decent backing plates and fender washers on the inside of the hull at the attachment points. If you really want to go full hog you could even redesign the the rudder brackets to make the rudders dagger style rather than the current swing design.

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Highlander
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Re: Making rudders

Post by Highlander » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:45 pm

sailboatmike said
If you really want to go full hog you could even redesign the the rudder brackets to make the rudders dagger style rather than the current swing design.

Someone has already done that mod on their :mac19: converting them to dagger board style rudders which also involves making new longer rudder,s or just buying longer rudder,s that r already on the market .
The nice feature of this mod is it would allow u to use the rudders in shallower waters , only issue I see is how do u get the rudders ahead of the transom in the lowest position !
Image

J

whgoffrn
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Re: Making rudders

Post by whgoffrn » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:38 pm

If you just broke a rudder I would just make one in the exact same specs as the OEM ones .... heres my take on the rudder design /flaws of the OEM ones....its not just the rudders fault its the compromise of the boat/hull itself .... I went out in some semi trying conditions this last trip to islamorada and had some fairly steep following seas as I was coming back in and was really fighting the boat because the front has a sharp entry deadrise and the stern is flat ....the front of the boat slices into the water and is more prone to stick where the back slides down the face of the wave because its flat.... those little pop cycle sticks just have a difficult time being responsible for not only steering the vessel but also preventing it from sliding down the face of a quartering wave..... a typical sailboat has a keel which helps prevent this from happening ..... I noticed a huge huge difference with a drogue .... it keeps the ass planted in place and allows the rudders to just be responsible for steering .... in my OPINION I doubt its feasible to build a rudder with enough surface area to easily combat this problem without having other issues with brackets or steering cables breaking..... I did have stronger rudders made last year but looking back on it now I dont think with the use of a drogue it would have been necessary

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Re: Making rudders

Post by Divecoz » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:12 pm

Excellent post whgoffrn... (as for My previous concern for matching the existing rudder? It was to enable equal response) ..All the rest about dagger-board rudders and longer rudders blablabla? None of that Answered the OP's question..
whgoffrn wrote:If you just broke a rudder I would just make one in the exact same specs as the OEM ones .... heres my take on the rudder design /flaws of the OEM ones....its not just the rudders fault its the compromise of the boat/hull itself .... I went out in some semi trying conditions this last trip to islamorada and had some fairly steep following seas as I was coming back in and was really fighting the boat because the front has a sharp entry deadrise and the stern is flat ....the front of the boat slices into the water and is more prone to stick where the back slides down the face of the wave because its flat.... those little pop cycle sticks just have a difficult time being responsible for not only steering the vessel but also preventing it from sliding down the face of a quartering wave..... a typical sailboat has a keel which helps prevent this from happening ..... I noticed a huge huge difference with a drogue .... it keeps the ass planted in place and allows the rudders to just be responsible for steering .... in my OPINION I doubt its feasible to build a rudder with enough surface area to easily combat this problem without having other issues with brackets or steering cables breaking..... I did have stronger rudders made last year but looking back on it now I dont think with the use of a drogue it would have been necessary

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Divecoz
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Re: Making rudders

Post by Divecoz » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:25 pm

Well Mike those rudders from Rudder craft are $750 USD + Shipping and handling..are you running a pair that you can show us? In Fact I have heard of few here spending that kind of money on new rudders.. AS for superior?? These boat came at a very modest entry level price for a very good reason..
sailboatmike wrote:
This is the exact problem Rogers Rudders just DON'T WORK as they should!.
Why would you want to recreate something exactly that doesn't do the job intended properly??

Rudder Craft (https://ruddercraft.com ) have made a tidy sum of money from providing better performing rudders and centerboards for the Macgregors and their rudders are not the same as the Macgregor OEM design.

The main issue I see with Mac rudders is they are not profiled correctly to NACA 12 (Boats around 6knts) for one and secondly they don't take into account the pretty flat bottoms of the power sailor designs. This is particularly apparent on the early X design rudder which just isn't deep enough and thus much of the rudder is operating in the turbulent water cause by the boats stern which means the first 4 or 5 inches is doing very little except being a spacer for getting the small part of the rudder that is doing the work below the turbulence, thus the actual WORKING area is very small. I believe step one to improving the OEM rudder design is to make it longer to give you more working area under the water. I would think around 4 inches would greatly improve the handling.

Of course this has it's drawbacks, such as requiring more water before the rudders can be fully deployed and increasing stress on the rudder pivots, the hull at the attachment points and of course the actual rudder itself being stressed at the point that its connected to the boat. All of these can be simply worked around with a little thought, ideas such as facing the top part of the rudder near the pivot hole with 3/64" or 1mm Aluminium on each side, beefing up the rudder brackets and putting some decent backing plates and fender washers on the inside of the hull at the attachment points. If you really want to go full hog you could even redesign the the rudder brackets to make the rudders dagger style rather than the current swing design.

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sailboatmike
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Re: Making rudders

Post by sailboatmike » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:59 pm

Divecoz wrote:Well Mike those rudders from Rudder craft are $750 USD + Shipping and handling..are you running a pair that you can show us? In Fact I have heard of few here spending that kind of money on new rudders.. AS for superior?? These boat came at a very modest entry level price for a very good reason..
The answer to that is no I don't run Ruddercaft rudders, I'm designing my own, but that does not change the fact that the original rudders were poorly designed and Roger knew it that is why the rudders went through a few evolutions.

The later ones were deeper and better than the original X rudders by around 4 inches and had somewhat better profiling, however I have read of many that have bought Ruddercraft rudders and have found them a great improvement on the originals.

The point remains the same, why would one go to all the trouble of exactly recreating something that didn't work properly in the first place, the MAJOR concern people have with their X and M's is the lack of steering authority and the tendency for the rudders to stall, all rudders will stall at some point, however due to the poor profiling the powersailor rudders do it at a much shallower angle of attack causing the boat to keep going in a straight line rather than turn. Correct profiling is not expensive, the OEM rudders were made in a mould, so once you have built the mould they get churned out just like the original OEM ones

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Divecoz
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Re: Making rudders

Post by Divecoz » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:29 am

sailboatmike wrote:
Divecoz wrote:Well Mike those rudders from Rudder craft are $750 USD + Shipping and handling..are you running a pair that you can show us? In Fact I have heard of few here spending that kind of money on new rudders.. AS for superior?? These boat came at a very modest entry level price for a very good reason..
The answer to that is no I don't run Ruddercaft rudders, I'm designing my own, but that does not change the fact that the original rudders were poorly designed and Roger knew it that is why the rudders went through a few evolutions.
So what can you show us of these new designed rudders ( please no autocad drawings.. ) rudder design changes over a 15 year period go figure.. BTW Roger produced 20 different boats over the entire run.. thats a LOT OF CHANGES TOO :D :D :D

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sailboatmike
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Re: Making rudders

Post by sailboatmike » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:52 am

Divecoz wrote: So what can you show us of these new designed rudders ( please no autocad drawings.. ) rudder design changes over a 15 year period go figure.. BTW Roger produced 20 different boats over the entire run.. thats a LOT OF CHANGES TOO :D :D :D
Yeah I can draw them in crayon for you, but I feel that still may be a little above you intellectual abilities :D :D :D :D :D :D

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