Why Do We Need Foam

A forum for discussing boat or trailer repairs or modifications that you have made or are considering.
User avatar
Starscream
Admiral
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:08 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Montreal, Quebec. 2002 26X - Suzi DF90A

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Starscream »

I removed a lot of the moldy old foam in the V-berth area, and added a storage bin there. I replaced a lot of the foam with 2-litre plastic bottles, and was thinking about stuffing more bottles in the rear bilges, because Bear Hunt is butt-heavy.

I was looking for inflatable bladders and the like, but couldn't really find anything with the right combination of strength and size.

Then I found these:
https://www.poolsuppliescanada.ca/30-mi ... -blue.html

I'm ordering a dozen for our pool winter cover, and will check to see they would fit semi-inflated in the rear bilges. They will probably be too big, but at $14.00 it sure would be nice if they worked.
DownSouth
Chief Steward
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:12 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by DownSouth »

You can use pool noodles (the type kids use to help them swim in pools) or gym balls (the thick rubber blow up type you sit on for exercise).

Down South
User avatar
NiceAft
Admiral
Posts: 6157
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:28 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Upper Dublin,PA, USA: 2005M 50hp.Honda4strk.,1979 Phantom Sport Sailboat, 9'Achilles 6HP Merc 4strk

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by NiceAft »

I would not trust anything which needs to be inflated as a replacement for the foam.

Foam doesn’t slowly deflate due to air lose from bladders which have a pin hole, or valves which are not designed to prevent air lose, especially when under pressure from the outside. Slowly, over time, there could be air lose, and when you need them the most....... :(

The pool noodle actually seems like a good addition.
Ray ~~_/)~~
User avatar
kurz
Admiral
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:07 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Zürich, Switzerland, Europe

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by kurz »

by the way... I ever... your Mac will have a hole... Would it be an advantage to have an empry water ballast? Or will an empty water ballast make the half sunk boat even more unstable???
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 6135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Tomfoolery »

kurz wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:48 amby the way... I ever... your Mac will have a hole... Would it be an advantage to have an empry water ballast? Or will an empty water ballast make the half sunk boat even more unstable???
Interesting question, but my gut tells me it would make the boat more likely to turn turtle, especially if the foam is also low in the hull.
Tom
Be seeing you . . .
User avatar
Russ
Admiral
Posts: 7543
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:01 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Bozeman, Montana "Luna Azul" 2008 M 70hp Suzi

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Russ »

I wouldn't put too much faith in the unsinkable aspect. Ray recently posted an excellent comment regarding Roger's marketing.
He also demonstrated that those boats won't sink; showing a photograph of a Mac he had drilled holes in, to show it won't sink. It won"t, but unless you distribute the weight evenly, such as everyone in the photo, and you are calmly at a dock, the boat will flip, or turtle, dumping everyone on deck. IT WON'T SINK THOUGH :D
I would not depend on "unsinkable" to save you any more than a bilge pump to save you if you put a hole in your boat.


Image
--Russ
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by BOAT »

Tomfoolery wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:53 am
kurz wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:48 amby the way... I ever... your Mac will have a hole... Would it be an advantage to have an empry water ballast? Or will an empty water ballast make the half sunk boat even more unstable???
Interesting question, but my gut tells me it would make the boat more likely to turn turtle, especially if the foam is also low in the hull.
I think I remember something about Roger putting a hole through the hull in the test boat in the picture where there are guys all standing on a half submerged MAC boat. The only way to get a hole through the hull that will let water in is to put the hole under the waterline, and that means through the ballast too. (How else would they drill a hole under the water line without penetrating the ballast?) In my book that means it's a full ballast tank in the picture.

Don't know.

But, one thing we DO know: The boat that capsized in San Diego had an empty ballast tank. That much was in the report.
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Jimmyt »

Unsinkable just means you have something to sit on, or cling to, while waiting for rescue. It doesn't mean you can sit in the cockpit with only your feet getting wet. I'm betting a 26 ft white fiberglass object will be easier to spot than a human bobbing along in a vest.

Flotation/unsinkable was one important factor in my purchase. Anyone trapped in the cabin will be more accessible for rescue, since the boat won't go to the bottom. Bottom line, if the situation goes to hull in a handcart, I'd rather have a boat on the surface than on the bottom.

I have a very large automatic bilge pump. My hope is, it will buy me enough time to find, and at least partially stop the leak. Hopefully it would allow me to self-rescue. I've tested it in place, and it will keep up with a significant leak.

I read a lot of news articles and various reports on the few Mac-related tragedies. All were a result of ignorance, negligence, and/or BWI. Severe overloading combined with poor weight distribution, often with no ballast were common threads.

Agree that a bilge pump won't "save you"; nor will an "unsinkable boat". However, both of these dramatically improve the odds of a good outcome over a boat that quickly goes to the bottom.

My opinion. Your boat; your choice.
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 6135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Tomfoolery »

Jimmyt wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:54 amI read a lot of news articles and various reports on the few Mac-related tragedies. All were a result of ignorance, negligence, and/or BWI. Severe overloading combined with poor weight distribution, often with no ballast were common threads.
Have there been any publicized incidents where Macs did have full ballast? Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't recall any such tragedies where the ballast tank was full. It's pretty hard to turtle a Mac with full ballast, though I suppose it can be done if you try hard enough. as with any sailboat. :|
Tom
Be seeing you . . .
User avatar
NiceAft
Admiral
Posts: 6157
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:28 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Upper Dublin,PA, USA: 2005M 50hp.Honda4strk.,1979 Phantom Sport Sailboat, 9'Achilles 6HP Merc 4strk

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by NiceAft »

Jimmyt wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:54 am Unsinkable just means you have something to sit on, or cling to, while waiting for rescue. It doesn't mean you can sit in the cockpit with only your feet getting wet. I'm betting a 26 ft white fiberglass object will be easier to spot than a human bobbing along in a vest.

Flotation/unsinkable was one important factor in my purchase. Anyone trapped in the cabin will be more accessible for rescue, since the boat won't go to the bottom. Bottom line, if the situation goes to hull in a handcart, I'd rather have a boat on the surface than on the bottom.

I have a very large automatic bilge pump. My hope is, it will buy me enough time to find, and at least partially stop the leak. Hopefully it would allow me to self-rescue. I've tested it in place, and it will keep up with a significant leak.

I read a lot of news articles and various reports on the few Mac-related tragedies. All were a result of ignorance, negligence, and/or BWI. Severe overloading combined with poor weight distribution, often with no ballast were common threads.

Agree that a bilge pump won't "save you"; nor will an "unsinkable boat". However, both of these dramatically improve the odds of a good outcome over a boat that quickly goes to the bottom.

My opinion. Your boat; your choice.

Jimmy,

I agree with everything you say, except for the part about
Anyone trapped in the cabin will be more accessible for rescue, since the boat won't go to the bottom.
It’s too generalized. It’s like saying that one has a better chance of surviving if you don’t fall off a ledge :D How high is that ledge; 4’, 400’?

I just don’t believe it’s realistic to believe a Mac will stay nice and level while every one just patiently waits for rescue. I believe there is a real probability for it to flip, or turtle rather than remaining level. If that does occur, the cabin interior is topsy turvy, and the companion way is submerged in an unnatural position for access or egress (one would have to go down rather than up for egress).

I agree with all else you had to say, but not that.
Ray ~~_/)~~
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Jimmyt »

NiceAft wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:32 am Jimmy,

I agree with everything you say, except for the part about
Anyone trapped in the cabin will be more accessible for rescue, since the boat won't go to the bottom.
It’s too generalized. It’s like saying that one has a better chance of surviving if you don’t fall off a ledge :D How high is that ledge; 4’, 400’?

I just don’t believe it’s realistic to believe a Mac will stay nice and level while every one just patiently waits for rescue. I believe there is a real probability for it to flip, or turtle rather than remaining level. If that does occur, the cabin interior is topsy turvy, and the companion way is submerged in an unnatural position for access or egress (one would have to go down rather than up for egress).

I agree with all else you had to say, but not that.
Exactly right. I would assume that the boat might be upside down. I would much rather be going after someone in a cabin at the surface, than having to free dive 20-60 feet to try and find the boat before I could enter the cabin to attempt rescue.

Don't really understand the ledge analogy. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by BOAT »

My wife was crying this morning because baby rabbits she was watching in the back yard from the kitchen window for 2 weeks suddenly disappeared. Being wild rabbits I assume one of the owls got them.

This Corona the virus thing has her stuck in the house all day and I think it's getting to all of us.

The rabbits tried real hard to be safe, and the big rabbit survived because she did not venture out like the smaller, more hungry ones did. The smaller rabbits were willing to take a risk to have more food and enjoy the sunshine but the larger one was more fearful and remained inside hungry. The smaller ones disappeared. My wife was crying because she felt that now the larger rabbit was all alone and sad. One rabbit chose survival, the others chose liberty. Which one is the most miserable?

I have a degree in human behavior and psychology and it was easy for me to realize my wife was transferring herself onto the sad momma rabbit that was stuck in her safe burrow watching everyone else in the outside world die.

I knew this was a political/religious question when I posed the original question on this post. That's why the moderators moved me out of the room for asking it. It's what makes me a troll.

Basic human convictions:
Survival vs Liberty.
Liberal vs Conservative
Stay at Home orders vs Open the Economy
Socialism vs Capitalism
God vs hull
Foam vs Storage

It's like everything else in life one side is safe and restricting the other side is dangerous and pleasurable.

We could take safety to the nth degree and never go out on a boat at all - why take the risk? But we want to have a good life so we get in that dangerous car in the driveway and hit the freeway, but perhaps with a seat belt on.

Bottom line - I really do not think anyone is going to die in their MAC from lack of foam but really we should not make ourselves sad and miserable even if someone does die. Remember - we are doing this because it's what we want to do with our life - you will eventually die - everyone does and you can die many ways - is this a bad way to go / On your boat doing what you love?

The rabbits reminded me we need to get on with living, foam or no foam.

(We'll see what the moderators do with THAT one)
User avatar
NiceAft
Admiral
Posts: 6157
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:28 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Upper Dublin,PA, USA: 2005M 50hp.Honda4strk.,1979 Phantom Sport Sailboat, 9'Achilles 6HP Merc 4strk

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by NiceAft »

I don’t disagree.

Image
Ray ~~_/)~~
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Jimmyt »

Agree. If you want all of the flotation out of your boat, have at it. It won't sink any faster than the typical keel boat. I guess I may be the odd bird in the nest for using flotation in my buying decision.

With me, it's about reducing risk for myself and, more importantly, those around me - in all activities. I did a lot of rock climbing in my college days with the right equipment and with people who knew what they were doing. Rode a motorcycle for transportation for 15 years - full leathers and full face helmet. I believe in living life and doing fun things. The tragedy is not dying while doing something that you love - It's dying from an easily avoidable risk. I know people who don't wear seat belts. I'm not one of them.

BOAT: no more dead baby rabbit stories... I don't have a waterproof cover on my iPad.
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Why Do We Need Foam

Post by Jimmyt »

Tomfoolery wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:09 am
Jimmyt wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:54 amI read a lot of news articles and various reports on the few Mac-related tragedies. All were a result of ignorance, negligence, and/or BWI. Severe overloading combined with poor weight distribution, often with no ballast were common threads.
Have there been any publicized incidents where Macs did have full ballast? Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't recall any such tragedies where the ballast tank was full. It's pretty hard to turtle a Mac with full ballast, though I suppose it can be done if you try hard enough. as with any sailboat. :|
Some of the stories had very scant info. Where they specifically mentioned ballast, I believe they were empty.

The overloading issues and weight distribution mistakes were so bad that a drowning was likely whether the boat turtled or not.

I really don't trust news media to give an accurate portrayal of any situation. I try not to state, as fact, things that I don't know are actual facts.

But, I agree with you that it would be very hard to turtle one with full ballast.

Feel free to be argumentative. I could use the exhilaration! :)
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
Post Reply