question concerning potential "knock down"

[LOUIS B HOLUB]

I was motoring yesterday, sight seeing local hurricane Ike damages, and conditions became very windy. I was mast up, no canvas other than the rolled up furling, and the ballast was empty.

The incident was somewhat frightening, making a port side turn atop a huge "rogue" wave. The wind seemed to catch the high starboard-side-freeboard on my Mac X in some strange way leaning the vessel dangerously and quickly on the down side of this big wave. I was solo, with no one to shift any weight.

How likely is an "empty ballasted" Mac X prone to a knock down in conditions described above ? Note: I usually keep the ballast "full" when winds are heavy--however, in this case, the winds became gusty, and the entire event was sudden.

Fortunately, my Admiral wasnt along for this "ride" (She wouldve noticed my "lack of confidence")

[K9Kampers]

On our first sail this summer, my wife & I experienced a similar event. Launching in Wolfeboro Bay, Lake Winnipesaukee, we were coasting in light / no wind and gave up to just float around & swim...the calm before the storm. Dark skies to the north - appearing to be a slow moving stormfront. While motoring back to the dock, we took off the mainsail. As I removed the boom, the storm hit with an intensity that I've never experienced before. Just like flicking a switch, the afternoon sky went from light to darkness... night-time darkness! In seconds, winds from nowhere turned the lake from flat calm to 3' whitecapped swells. With full ballast / no sail, CB down, we were waaayyyy over to the stbd rail & rain so heavy, it was hard to see. Less than half mile to the docks, CB up, we ran in at WOT! What a ride!! Tied off and ran into a nearby store for shelter, lightning never closer than 3 miles. Half hour - later clear skies.

We felt totally safe in the Mac, not enough time to think otherwise, everything was reaction to what was happening. Never with sails full of wind had I gone over so far as we did that day with just the mast up!

[DaveB]

I am from SW FL. where thunderstorms are freaky with winds exceeding 40 knots at times.
When I feel a storm comeing I take on water ballest (I usually already have the ballest in) and lower all sails. Even this will knock me down to 50 or more degrees if beam to the wind in 35-40 knots.
I generally sail in shallow water and if the storm looks heavy I anchor in about 10-20 ft. of water and let the bow take the punch, safe and easy ride in 3-4 ft. short breakers.
Dave

[Indulgence]

It's hard for me to believe anyone has the guts to go out in one of these things without ballast.
They're not self righting and it scares the pants off me. Why do you guys do that? What's the
benefit?
L.

[LOUIS B HOLUB]

It's hard for me to believe anyone has the guts to go out in one of these things without ballast.
They're not self righting and it scares the pants off me. Why do you guys do that? What's the
benefit?
L.

Youre right...its dangerous. But, as the factory video shows, the boat is a lot of fun motoring (in light winds & calm waters) without the ballast. But, the problem is getting "caught" in unforseen weather changes, and sightseeing without paying attention -- thats what got me in trouble.

Experience is a good teacher.

[NiceAft]

How likely is an "empty ballasted" Mac X prone to a knock down in conditions described above ?

Louis, my gut feeling is that a knock down is something that happens to a sailboat. When you're motoring about with no ballast, and sails furled, you're a powerboat. You are definitely not self righting, and definitely at risk

In one of Tom Clancy's novels, one of the characters (John Clark) turns over a power boat and sinks it by making the turn you spoke of. I know what some may say, Louis is real and John Clark is fiction, but Tom Clancy is known for his thorough research. I believe you could have gone over and stayed that way

K9, it sounds like you were caught in a Downburst.

According to the Boating Safety Book, presented by Met Life and the U.S. Coast Guard;

Code: Select all

The hazards of Downburst are: *Extreme, sudden winds which can tip a sailboat beyond its range of upright stability.  *Heavy seas that can capsize powerboats too. * High winds that can blow equipment off the deck and cause persons on board to lose balance and fall overboard.

Boats caught out on open water under these conditions can encounter a downburst without expecting it.  This fact makes predicting their occurrence almost an impossible task.

Ray

[Zoran]

Mac is definitely prone to knock down without ballast and I must admit I am one of these that almost allways power and very often (in winds below 10 kt allways) sails without ballast. Benefit is significant to me. Powering without ballast is less fuel consumption and much easier work for the engine. Sailing in light winds with no ballast means that I am moving somewhere and it is a lot of fun. With all the above I must say that I do have a huge respect for sea and wind. I never even power without ballast if I have more than 4 people on board (unless it is very very calm and than crew have to obey my orders and keep the weight well distributed). When I am sailing without ballast I have sheets in my hands and ready to release (steering with my leg or autpilot depending on situation). I know I will come back up if I am at 35 degrees and I think I hit 40 once - I was a bit slow on releasing . Stongest wind I ever sailed without ballast was over 15kt, with three guys on board, enough to sit on the rail and keep her close hauled and at 25 degrees heel. Downside was that I still had to spill some wind and I estimated that I made same or less speed as if I had ballast. It was short sail so decided not to fill in the ballast for half hour of sailing that will take me 5 minutes to fill it in and 5 minutes to empty it out. When powering I am careful to watch where the winds are coming from and very carefull about swell direction and especialy of wrong combnation of sharp power boat wake and sea swells. If you watch you can do all of it safely. I sail in the west coast and there is allways enough water around me and winds here do not come from nowhere, they always take some time to build up, enough to me tuck in the harbour or fill the ballast if necessary.
Again key for powering/sailing with no ballast is observe, anticipate and play safe.

Zoran

[bubba]

It only takes 110 pounds to hold the mast down to the water, as the Mac web site shows. Unless your powering and the water preassure on the hull is enough to stableize your Mac keep the ballast valve open so when you slow down it fills for stability. In wind with waves over 1 ft keep the ballast full and closed even with no sails up and always when with sails up.

[delevi]

It only takes 110 pounds to hold the mast down to the water, as the Mac web site shows.

110 lbs with 30 feet of leverage. I believe that's around 3300 lbs of force, but the boat had ballast full as the point of the exercise was to show the boat is self-righting.

I experienced a scary situation while motoring back to the Marina without ballst. San Francisco Bay has pockets of mild to no winds while other parts may have a full gale blowing. I had no intention of sailing since time was short. I almost never motor with ballast in, except when it's really rough, and usually during those times, I'm sailing. As I pulled out from oround the shelter of Angel Island which was very calm as it usually is, I got hit with the full blast of the 35-40 kts wind and 4 foot waves (very closely spaced) blowing out of the Golden Gate. This area is frequently very windy and I knew it, but I underestimated just how windy on that day. It comes at you really fast as you round the island. It's typically around 25-30. Anyway, the wind and waves were on my starboard beam and the boat was rolling 30-40 degrees, perhaps more. It was hard to keep my eyes on the inclinometer because I knew I was in trouble. I lowered my 180 lb daggerboard but that didn't seem to help one bit. I knew I couldn't keep taking the pounding on the beam since the rolling just seemed to increase more and more. I quickly turned the bow into the wind and waves, but now what. I was by myself and didn't have autopilot at the time. The vent plug was shut. To hide back behind the island would mean turning by beam back to the gale and I didn't want to risk that. I decided to put her in neutral and make a run for the drain plug. It took much longer than I hoped since I got knocked over onece or twice while making my way up through the cabin. Back at the helm I opened the valve but knew I had to point the bow into the wind. The hard part was keeping her there and not using much power so the tank fills. I fought the sea for a good 15 minutes, allowing extra time to fill, due to the forward motion I needed to avoid the knockdown. Once the drama was over, I proceeded to motor home at around 6 knots. Moral of the story....should have filled the tank behind the island and sailed home.

fair winds,
Leon

[Boblee]

Maybe my boats so heavy already but at the speeds I normally travel at, ballast in or out doesn't make a lot of difference so most times it is full.
It just makes the boat so much more stable especially if the conditions change quickly with tide or wind.

[LOUIS B HOLUB]

Leon...a scarry event indeed. My event was similar, but my weather threatenings wern't as bad as your storm. I think the Mac-X (my boat) is less stable without the ballast comparable to your boat (Mac-M) which has the additional 300 lbs built in ballast. I would think a Mac X wouldve been knocked down in your event.

I also enjoy motoring without the ballast, only in fair winds and calm waters. Uses less fuel, motors faster, and just all around great fun. Incidentally, for several months I've kept the vent plug open when solo motoring. I also found out it's a real chore trying to unplug the vent in order to fill the ballast when being bounced around by winds, waves, or other boat traffic.

[J.Teixeira]

Hi

I did Knockdown a boat...

It’s a very traumatizing experience...

It was with mi Dehler 23. Believe it or it’s a Iron keel boat (1.1 Ton of keel)

We were flying a spinnaker in High wind…
And bang we lost control and it was the total chaos.
The boat turned to the wind, the spinnaker collapsed the boom tacked with great violence.
And the mast banged to the ocean with all the sails in the water

Theoretically we knew that the boat would stand up again but…

Big surprise the was a heavy noise inside the boat while everything that was under the berts came out and fall down to the side in the water .

The companion way was closed (I am sure that it did saved the day).

We where 4 young people highly trained in small racing sailboats and we started immediately the maneuver to regain the vertical position.

3 went over the keel pulling the halyards and one was over the hull side.

The boat slowly came back to is position the automatic pumps started working.

When we did open the companion way door we found out a total havoc inside.

Damage was serious to electric and electronic equipment because even with the door closed a lot of water had found a way inside…

One word.. Capsizing…

AVOID IT

Best regards

Jose

[NiceAft]

Yes indeed. That sums it up quite well

AVOID IT

Ray

[Compromise]

I think the Mac-X (my boat) is less stable without the ballast comparable to your boat (Mac-M) which has the additional 300 lbs built in ballast.

Hey Louis, having sailed both the X and the M, I would venture to say their stability is about the same. I pretty much keep ballast in all the time unless I decide to get her on a plane, then I tend to drain the ballast and pull all boards up. They are both very squirrelly at this point in my opinion.
Both subject to healing with no cloth up in anytning over 10 knots...

[J.Teixeira]

What i did mean with AVOID IT...

Is that I am pretty sure that a MAC X or M with the gear we all generally have...

WILL NOT RECOVER From A KNOCKDOWN.

So... I take no risks. Ballast Tank and reef on time.

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And with a "standard" family crew. I am sure that the recovering maneuver is nearly impossible to execute.

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One other thing ...

I have to kids (10 and 12 yo.)

When sailing mi MAC in high wind I never let them stay in the rear berth. The kids love that place, but with all the gear, we all keep there it seems to me a dangerous place in case of a knockdown.

The kids can be trapped there in case of a knockdown...

It's mi feeling about that.

Jose