Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

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dlandersson
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Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:17 pm

Okay, I went out today and was expecting a great time. Wind 10-15 knots from the west. Waves less than 2 feet.

I was going along, main up, genoa deployed - not all the way but to the mast, - going like a bat out of h---, a big s--- eating grin plastered on my face, heeling between 15 - 20 degrees (mostly), 5 knots (mostly), when suddenly Soggy Paws starts turning inside 30 degrees winward. I can't turn her back, so I simply tack over - no go. No matter what I do, my boat won't turn past 30 degrees, and is often "in irons". :?

This went on for a while, before I declare victory and go home. 8)

I assume part of it is because of the wind hitting the high freeboard - but I haven't have this problem hardly at all before. Solutions? :(
Last edited by dlandersson on Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Tomfoolery » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:29 pm

Is your mast tuned correctly? It's supposed to have more of a cant towards the stern than most other sailboats, but I've taken some out and it's helped. 4 degrees as measured to the flat area of the deck in front of the mast is what the manual shows, but I've cut mine back to less than 3 degrees (I think it's about 2.75 deg.). I also use the working jib when the winds are enough to need to reef the genoa, as long as I know the winds will be up at least.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:54 pm

It's about 3 degrees aft. I'm thinking of tilting it until it just clears the captains seat. :P
Tomfoolery wrote:Is your mast tuned correctly? It's supposed to have more of a cant towards the stern than most other sailboats, but I've taken some out and it's helped. 4 degrees as measured to the flat area of the deck in front of the mast is what the manual shows, but I've cut mine back to less than 3 degrees (I think it's about 2.75 deg.). I also use the working jib when the winds are enough to need to reef the genoa, as long as I know the winds will be up at least.
Last edited by dlandersson on Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by mastreb » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:14 pm

If you're sure your mast rake is correct, you're probably just over sheeted for the wind and rounding up. Things to try:

1) Furl the headsail down to 100% or less.

2) Let out the mainsheet a bit when the boat heels beyond 20%

3) On an X, pull the centerboard up a bit. That should move the CLR aft and re-balance the boat. (just guessing on this one based on the physics--I don't have an X)

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Whipsyjac » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:20 pm

I had this problem the first season with my :macx: and after removing some of the mast rake the biggest difference was made by going from the 110 jib to a 150 Genoa. If I was having trouble with rounding up the first thing I'd do is reef the main not the head sail. It's the over-powering of the main that pushes the boat behind it's pivot point and causes the rounding up(or as I found out this year heeling past 30deg).

To put it in terms of COE vs CLR when the center of effort moves aft of the center of lateral resistance it pushes the aft away from the wind. So keep your headsail out and spill wind off your main. You can spill wind off your main by releasing the main sheet or reefing it to find the balance with the headsail.

Last year when my steering was in jeopardy while crossing the strait in 17kt winds I was able to center the rudder and steer by the sheets for over an hour while I thought out my options. Hardening the main would cause rounding up. Hardening the Genoa sheet would cause me to turn downwind. I think I'll make it a policy to reef the main before the Genoa as long as I'm sailing my :macx: .

Once this year I tried raising the full main in 20kts and 5-6ft seas, and yes it heeled 30+deg and rounded up uncontrollably.

My favorite part of this story is you were sailing! and doing 5kts! One guy who thought my desire for a MacGregor was unreasonable admitted his family's sailboat(28ft full keel clinker hull) had never exceeded 4kts under sail and that they simply motored at 5kts the majority of the time. I've had my :macx: over 6kts! Any time you exceed 4kts under sail you are kicking butt! Way to go!

Willy

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:30 pm

Your mainsail experience makes a lot of sense. I tried shortening the Genoa - didn't seem to help much. And my Hunter 216 main is a bit bigger than a factory Doyle 26X main.

You would have been quite impressed. I was barreling down the way - getting waves and thumbs-up from everyone (all three of'em) out there - until I suddenly got hit by my "rounding up" problem. OTOH, I don't normally get to sail in 15 knots winds. :wink: The water was a-churning, the sails were a-thrummin', I was braced by my leg against the cockpit wall, and the occasional "thump" down below let me know that something had fallen off of something. :)
Whipsyjac wrote:My favorite part of this story is you were sailing! and doing 5kts! One guy who thought my desire for a MacGregor was unreasonable admitted his family's sailboat(28ft full keel clinker hull) had never exceeded 4kts under sail and that they simply motored at 5kts the majority of the time. I've had my :macx: over 6kts! Any time you exceed 4kts under sail you are kicking butt! Way to go!

Willy

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by BOAT » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:45 pm

No education on the X, - I guess it just sounds like the center of pressure is behind the keel/centerboard? Reduce all sails that are behind the keel first if that is the issue and it should correct itself.

It's never been a big issue on "boat" but I don't think the two boats are shaped the same on the bottom?

All I know is that "if you sail on the side of you boat" the "side of your boat now becomes the bottom of your boat" so the shape of your hull is probably the first place to look for clues to how she sails when sideways.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by DaveC426913 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:11 pm

dlandersson wrote:... starts turning inside 30 degrees winward. I can't turn her back, so I simply tack over - no go. No matter what I do, my boat won't turn past 30 degrees, and is often "in irons"...
Sorry, what does this mean? You couldn't head up past 30? Or couldn't fall off past 30?

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by vizwhiz » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:16 pm

I think he's saying he couldn't fall off past 30

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Catigale » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:06 am

If you keep rounding up back and forth it actually still looks like you know how to sail.... :D :D :D

You probably needed to reef your main in that wind.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:02 am

Could not get her past 30 - nor would she let me turn from port to starboard or reverse. Nothing I did would let me do anything with regards to direction. 8)

I don't normally go out in 15 knots winds. If the wind is from any northern direction, the waves are 4 feet + - like now (6 Sept 2014).
DaveC426913 wrote:
dlandersson wrote:... starts turning inside 30 degrees winward. I can't turn her back, so I simply tack over - no go. No matter what I do, my boat won't turn past 30 degrees, and is often "in irons"...
Sorry, what does this mean? You couldn't head up past 30? Or couldn't fall off past 30?

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:04 am

Yeah, from a distance if probably might have looked like I was tacking back and forth. 8)

As long as you didn't hear the #@&^%$!!! :P

Teaching point for this - in those circumstances - start with a reefed main.

Although, I was going great for about an hour - you would have been quite proud of me. Then (for whatever reason) "trouble in river city". :|
Catigale wrote:If you keep rounding up back and forth it actually still looks like you know how to sail.... :D :D :D

You probably needed to reef your main in that wind.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Ixneigh » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:20 am

I always put a reef in the main first thing if the boat seems over powered. A reef, then reducing the genny a bit would have maybe solved your issues.
That said any time a boat "suddenly" starts doing something radically different with no environmental change, I suspect other things then sails. Did something break or bend? Is there something caught on the rudders or board? Are they still on the boat?!? Is there a problem with the rigging?
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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:25 am

The only real shortcoming is with the sailor. :P

In retrospect, the wind simply moved from where I could adjust to where I couldn't - perhaps 1-2 knots of speed more. 8)
Ixneigh wrote:I always put a reef in the main first thing if the boat seems over powered. A reef, then reducing the genny a bit would have maybe solved your issues.
That said any time a boat "suddenly" starts doing something radically different with no environmental change, I suspect other things then sails. Did something break or bend? Is there something caught on the rudders or board? Are they still on the boat?!? Is there a problem with the rigging?
Ix

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Wayne nicol » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:11 am

a lot can be lost in the interpretation- we as a people have become so dependant on visual interpretation- myself a main culprit!
but reading your first post and hearing all the accurate and valid responses- these guys know what they are doing around here- and i think perfect advice- but when i read now, it almost sounds like when you were coming through the wind, that you were "heaving too"-
dlandersson wrote:Could not get her past 30 - nor would she let me turn from port to starboard or reverse. Nothing I did would let me do anything with regards to direction.
kinda sounds like why you were getting "stuck". that is, off course, if i am reading it right.- its really easy to do accidentally with the genoa , if you are a bit slow in tacking the head sail- like when you are single handing, and dealing with the main, and the twitchy steering nature of the boats. the headsail ends up backwinding momentarily, and with no real momentum in these boats- your speed is robbed immediatly. then its even easier to stall the rudders- and then , there you sit!
with a tiller its always easy to keep a hand on the tiller, and reach forward with the other hand and deal with lines, with the wheel, i find the pedestal is always in the way- right when you need one hand on the wheel and one on the boat :x :x
i did see a post where a guy "modded"( is that even a word :? ) his boat with a track and car, and made his head sail self tacking. e really good idea with these boats.

heaving to, is a great drill to practice anyway :D

but these boats do like to round up really easily- for me i find playing with the trim between head and main, gets me a well balanced boat- with hands off steering.
but my boat is, if anything slightly bow heavy- with all my mods- and have since found the boat a better sailer! :)

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