Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

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dlandersson
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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:24 am

Wayne,

I wasn't trying to tack.

My boat simply moved into the wind all by herself - and when I tried to "go with the flow" - she would not "cross over either". I was some kind of "stuck". :)

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Hamin' X » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:29 am

Does sound like your were hove-to. Were the sails flogging?

~Rich

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Wayne nicol » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:33 am

oh, ok.
so she was rounding up, and not actually moving thru the wind- gotcha
well then the fellas are right; need to reduce the effective area of the main that is pivoting the boat around, either by reefing the main, or letting the main sheet out some, in order to "spill" a bit of wind on that main.
thanks for clearing that up :)
next time, ya gotta use your spare fifth hand and video whats going on- in amoungst the mayhem-so us neophyte's can look, and learn :D :D

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dlandersson
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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:02 am

To beat the band. :D
Hamin' X wrote:Does sound like your were hove-to. Were the sails flogging?

~Rich

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by DaveC426913 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:09 am

DaveC426913 wrote:
dlandersson wrote:... starts turning inside 30 degrees winward. I can't turn her back, so I simply tack over - no go. No matter what I do, my boat won't turn past 30 degrees, and is often "in irons"...
Sorry, what does this mean? You couldn't head up past 30? Or couldn't fall off past 30?
dlandersson wrote:Could not get her past 30 - nor would she let me turn from port to starboard or reverse.
That didn't actually answer my question. :?

I'm going to assume you mean you couldn't fall off below 30.

To me, that sounds like rounding up. When I'm trying to maintain a course into the wind and she keeps rounding up, I call that 'scalloping'.

I found the problem was too much sail. The main is pushing you up into the wind. You find yourself in irons a lot and can't steer. Then the moment the sails fill, you heel and round up again.

As Waybe and nicol are suggesting, best thing to do is reef the main, But also, whenever you feel the speed picking up, and you're about to round up, ease the main, spill some wind. You may be able to stave off a round up.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:52 am

And now we're are simply guessing. 8)

My boat would move from close hauled (port or starboard) to "in irons" despite anything I could do. (Did not change the main in any way)

My boat would not move from close hauled (port or starboard) to a beam reach despite anything I could do. (Did not change the main in any way)

No matter what I tried (wind about 15 knots) my boat simply kept moving into "in irons" - and staying there. :|

Note: I do not normally go out in more than 10 knots - because of wave height (fetch).
DaveC426913 wrote:
DaveC426913 wrote:
dlandersson wrote:... starts turning inside 30 degrees winward. I can't turn her back, so I simply tack over - no go. No matter what I do, my boat won't turn past 30 degrees, and is often "in irons"...
Sorry, what does this mean? You couldn't head up past 30? Or couldn't fall off past 30?
dlandersson wrote:Could not get her past 30 - nor would she let me turn from port to starboard or reverse.
That didn't actually answer my question. :?

I'm going to assume you mean you couldn't fall off below 30.

To me, that sounds like rounding up. When I'm trying to maintain a course into the wind and she keeps rounding up, I call that 'scalloping'.

I found the problem was too much sail. The main is pushing you up into the wind. You find yourself in irons a lot and can't steer. Then the moment the sails fill, you heel and round up again.

As Waybe and nicol are suggesting, best thing to do is reef the main, But also, whenever you feel the speed picking up, and you're about to round up, ease the main, spill some wind. You may be able to stave off a round up.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by DaveC426913 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:15 am

dlandersson wrote: My boat would move from close hauled (port or starboard) to "in irons" despite anything I could do. (Did not change the main in any way)
Right. And you also said you were over at 20 degrees.

So your overpowered main is causing you to round up.

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Re: Turing into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:37 am

I suspect so - first time out in that strong a wind with that main - learned something. :P

But boy, it was fun until it happened. :D
DaveC426913 wrote:
dlandersson wrote: My boat would move from close hauled (port or starboard) to "in irons" despite anything I could do. (Did not change the main in any way)
Right. And you also said you were over at 20 degrees.

So your overpowered main is causing you to round up.

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Re: Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by sirlandsalot » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:41 pm

So much to learn, I took my boat out a few times this summer, without my crew. I played with too much sail in too much wind. I got to it hold over 30 degrees, efficient no, but a lot of fun. I too found my boat round up without a reef in the main. I actually sailed a lot with the main reefed. I also had the horrifying experience of too much jib out, and un-commanded jibing! Sweet lord I scared myself, everything upside down below!

All in all, a good summer and learned a lot and pushed the boat hard. Now when I am out with my family, I feel much more confident to keep things pleasant.


One question? How do you heave too in a Mac?

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Re: Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by mastreb » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:09 pm

sirlandsalot wrote:So much to learn, I took my boat out a few times this summer, without my crew. I played with too much sail in too much wind. I got to it hold over 30 degrees, efficient no, but a lot of fun. I too found my boat round up without a reef in the main. I actually sailed a lot with the main reefed. I also had the horrifying experience of too much jib out, and un-commanded jibing! Sweet lord I scared myself, everything upside down below!

All in all, a good summer and learned a lot and pushed the boat hard. Now when I am out with my family, I feel much more confident to keep things pleasant.


One question? How do you heave too in a Mac?
Tack without easing the jib sheets so the jib stays backwinded, and once you're in irons, hard over the helm the opposite direction and keep the rudders hard over. Easy.

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Re: Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by darrenj » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:11 am

I once tried to sail with just the main sail (head sail furled) on my X .... I was stuck in irons the whole time. I found that I had to use the headsail to pull the bow out of irons while leaving the mainsail slack until I got up some speed. I now do that to some degree on each tack as it speeds up the tack so that I don't lose as much speed. I think the M boats behave quite differently under main sail alone.

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Re: Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by mastreb » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:48 pm

darrenj wrote:I once tried to sail with just the main sail (head sail furled) on my X .... I was stuck in irons the whole time. I found that I had to use the headsail to pull the bow out of irons while leaving the mainsail slack until I got up some speed. I now do that to some degree on each tack as it speeds up the tack so that I don't lose as much speed. I think the M boats behave quite differently under main sail alone.
Actually quite similar, in heavier winds. If you completely furl the headsail and then harden up the mainsheet so the boom is on the centerline, the boat will remain in irons basically hove-to. It's an even more reliable hove-to than using the headsail, because you can actually pull the rudders up and it will just stay that way. While I've not tested it in a storm, this is likely the best storm tactic for an X or M because it keeps the bow pointed directly at oncoming waves and will preserve the rudders and headsail, so even if your mainsail is flogged to death in the storm, you still have enough sail and boards to get home.

In light winds, beam reach, with an eased mainsheet so the boom is off 45 degrees, the boat will drift along lazily at about 25% of windspeed without rounding up or heaving-to. This is because with the mainsheet eased, the CE is moved both outboard and closer to the CLR.

It is nigh unto impossible to tack without the headsail under any circumstances I've ever found however. The boat simply won't make it through the 100 degrees of irons without a back-winded jib.

If you're only sailing one sail, the 150% genoa is much easier handling. it'll get you up to maybe 35% of true wind speed by itself. However, it does want all the weight in the back for balance. It's about as efficient as a lateen rig.

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Re: Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by Sloop John B » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:13 pm

]There’s a recurring suggestion on the board: to reef, reef early. It is said to avoid having you topple into the sea.

I launch in the early morning, the water is like glass. I drop a rudder and centerboard to be able to maneuver through the moored yachts without banging into one. Ease up the Sakonnet into Narragansett Bay, pull up the boards, and open the throttle. Toward noon the wind freshens 6, 7 knots, and it’s ideal sailing with full main and genoa. Luck begins to run out early afternoon with winds up around 15-20 knots. Nice for running and being on a broad reach. Wind continues to strengthen and beating becomes a chore.

This is where the “heading up” problem occurs with me. I feel to fight it would cause the boat to lay on its side. I pop the main free or allow the boat to head up when the water hits the combing but this happens every fifteen seconds and it’s lousy. Furling the genie helps. The real solution is to reef the main.

Not too much of a problem in my youth. Now in my mid-seventies my balance on a scale of 1 to 10 is 1.9. Heading into the wind to allow the main to drop causes the boom to flail back and forth like an ingenious device on “wipe out”. When moving about the boat I have to have hold of something and I can’t make it for sure from the cockpit to a stay in rough seas. I’ve run the main halyard through a couple blocks and a lock cleat and am able to drop the whole shebang from the cockpit and that’s what I usually end up doing in this situation.

So, next time I’ll heed the earlier suggestion and reef early.

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Re: Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by RobertB » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:12 pm

The lack of purist in me (kind of why I bought an :macm: ) makes me very willing to use my center "rudder" in these situations. The other trick I use (first) that Matt already passed on is to hold the foresail sheets until the boat turns thru the wind - back wind the sail to push the bow over - then release the sheet on that side and secure on the other.

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Re: Turning into the wind w/o control? WTF?

Post by DaveC426913 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:42 pm

Sloop John B wrote:The real solution is to reef the main.

Not too much of a problem in my youth. Now in my mid-seventies my balance on a scale of 1 to 10 is 1.9. Heading into the wind to allow the main to drop causes the boom to flail back and forth like an ingenious device on “wipe out”. When moving about the boat I have to have hold of something and I can’t make it for sure from the cockpit to a stay in rough seas.
It sounds like you would benefit greatly from a single-line reefing system. One line, operated from the cockpit. Look it up.

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