Electric winch in anchor locker for raising mast?

[davesisk]

Hi folks...I'm a new 26X owner...just picked up "Calypso" last weekend. I've been studying/pondering/etc these 26X's/26M'sfor a while, and decided to give it a go!

Did a practice run in my driveway with raising the mast to get all the rigging untangled and understand how the 26X mast-raising deal is suppposed to work. Easier than raising it by hand, but still not exactly a walk in the park. I think it could be improved to be quite a bit safer and a little easier.

I'm thinking of mounting a 12V 2000lb electric winch in (perhaps) the anchor locker, and using that with the 26X gin pole to pull the mast up. I can't take credit for the idea...a 26X recently sold in SC that had an electric winch mounted somewhere (I would assume the anchor locker) for mast-raising...sure sounds like a good idea to me.

My first sailboat a couple years ago was a beat up old 1970's Helsen 22...after raising the mast once by hand, I decided there had to be a better way. I build an aluminum A-frame that was permanently mounted to the boat and folded down out of the way at the bow, and mounted a normal trailer-style winch on the boat to pull the A-frame and mast up. That was pretty slick...I could turn the winch with one hand and steady the mast from swaying to either side with the other hand. That makes me want to take it one step further with the 26X. (I might even fabricate some sort of fold-out-of-the-way A-frame to help control the tendency of the mast to fall to the side on it's way up.) I could definitely set up this old 22 footer entirely by myself, and it was pretty safe compared to trying to do it by hand.

So, anyone here used an electric winch on a 26X to do this? The anchor locker sure seems like a great place to mount it...wondering if it's strong enough to support having the winch mounted to it though. Any thoughts from you great folks would be truly appreciated.

And hope to see some of you out on the water soon!

Cheers!
Dave

[Ormonddude]

Sounds like wasted space in the anchor locker as the force needed is only around 300 - 500 pounds search the forum many of us have upgraded or mod the system I will post mine for ya soon.

[Tomfoolery]

Sounds like you need the baby stays so you don't have to tend to the mast-falling-sideways issue manually. Blue Water Yachts sells the parts, or you can make your own.

I went with a 5:1 ball-bearing block system on my factory gin pole because those tiny plain-bearing fiddle blocks don't like high loading (too much friction). 6:1 would be even easier, but what I have now allows me to raise the mast with one hand pulling the line. I run that line through the rope clutch the PO's added for the main halyard, so I can stop and let go any time, usually to clear a snag.

As far as electric winches go, there are dangers in using them, like not 'feeling' a snag until you've kinked a shroud, or done some real damage (though in the wire rope world, a kink is real damage). And the cost. And the complexity. And the space required. But I don't see why it wouldn't work if you're prepared to do some reinforcement, and cut a hole to make room for it in the first place, as that anchor locker is pretty shallow.

[davesisk]

Hey guys...thanks for the posts! I just want it to be easier and safer. I've got a small ATV-type 2000 lb 12V winch already, and it IS small enough that it'll fit easily in the anchor locker. I'm wondering if perhaps I could have it do double-duty as a windlass too, actually. I could take the wire cable off and replace it with strong rope to raise the mast AND lift the anchor....I'd just have to spool out enough rope to raise/lower the mast while leaving the anchor connected to the other end. I *could* put a small 12V battery in the anchor locker to power the winch (with a solar panel mounted off the pulpit to keep it charged perhaps?)...if not in the anchor locker, then maybe under the front V-berth (although that would require me to drill a hole in side of the anchor locker to feed the wiring through...hmm).

I'm still thinking through this, as you can tell. I'd probably have to move the anchor out of the anchor locker to a fixture that holds it on a roller (what's this called again?).

What do you guys think I'd have to reinforce in the anchor locker?

Cheers,
Dave

[davesisk]

Baby-stays...actually, I might have those, there's a bag with some wire cable and a fixture that clamps around the mast...I wasn't sure what it was for (and not sure if it's complete), so I'll check that bag again.

Thanks!
Dave

[Tomfoolery]

Those might be the baby stays. If you have them, use them. Makes life MUCH easier. Dropping the mast over the side and/or onto someone else's boat or car will ruin your day, for sure. A new mast is a lot of money just for the extrusion.

Another thought, if you were thinking about spending money on new blocks to have a smoother system, would be to just buy a brake winch and make the gin pole fixed a la the 'new style' that MacGregor made for the boats.

As to using the electric, if you're determined to use it, I would investigate pinning it to the gin pole with a long cord. With 2000 lb SLP, the few hundred required to raise the mast, when it's at it's lowest position (load decreases as it gets closer to vertical, and as the geometry improves), should mean a relatively low current draw, decreasing as the mast goes up.

I don't know what's under that anchor locker other than a vee-berth, so I can't make marginally useful suggestions on that.

[paul I]

Like others have already said, an electric winch is overkill and the baby stays are a great help. One other point... the ease with which the mast goes up is the feedback I use to be sure its going up correctly and nothing is getting caught anywhere. I'd be afraid a power winch would damage something if it went undetected. Its pretty easy to get those stays accidently wrapped around something.

[Catigale]

I think if I were doing this I would put the winch on the trailer, not the boat, and double duty it for boat loading.

Running the juice for a power winch to the front of a Mac is also a expensive proposition.

[Spector]

Go with the style raising system. I converted my over myself by just buying a brake winch. Way easier than the old block and tackle setup

[K9Kampers]

Like others have already said, an electric winch is overkill and the baby stays are a great help. One other point... the ease with which the mast goes up is the feedback I use to be sure its going up correctly and nothing is getting caught anywhere. I'd be afraid a power winch would damage something if it went undetected. Its pretty easy to get those stays accidently wrapped around something.

I second that opinion! For a mast that can stepped by hand... if ya got the knees & knuts to, go with the manual system. Too easy to snag a stay or line and ruin yer day if you can't feel it happening.

[davesisk]

Hmmm, OK...maybe I should consider adding a hand-winch to the gin pole.

What do you guys think about using the electric winch for double-duty as a windlass?

Cheers,
Dave

[davesisk]

OK, I took you guys advice and added a winch to the gin pole (at least for now). Turns out, this little winch from Harbor Freight is a perfect fit...lightweight, 900 lb capacity, the handle is a rachet so you don't have to turn the handle the entire way, the hook fits perfectly into the stainless steel mount that is attached to the foredeck, the holes even line up perfectly with the existing holes in the gin pole: http://www.harborfreight.com/manual-str ... 95541.html

This should be MUCH easier than using the stock block-n-tackle and Lewmar winch. It has a brake of course, so if I need to stop in the middle to untangle something, no prob. I also found and figured out how to connect the baby-stays to keep the mast from swaying side-to-side on the way up. In all likelihood, I'll leave the baby stays and gin pole connected all the time...the shortest path to getting on the water works for me.

A couple of mods I'll prob add:

- I have a hydraulic-jack style pipe bender, so I may put some small bends in the gin pole so it follows the profile of the deck when it's in the horizontal position...this should help keep it out of the way of the jib sail. The aluminum is pretty thick (1/4 or so), so I think as long as I keep the bends small and a large radius, I don't believe it will compromise the compressive strength of the gin pole.

- Pulling the mast up by the jib halyard makes me a little nervous...ropes do break. I'll prob add a stainless steel cable (perhaps connected to the mast where the baby stays connect, like I've seen in one of the videos you guys posted) instead...I won't be as worried about that breaking.

- I'm a little surprised that one or both side stays aren't even with, or just aft of, the pivot point of the mast footing. That would have positioned the side stays so that they were tight all the way up and stopped the mast from swaying to the sides all the way up. Is there a functional reason the side stays are about a foot or so aft of the mast pivot? More force pushing the mast forward that backward maybe? If there's no functional reason, I might consider adding a 2nd chainplate (is that the right name?) on either side maybe 1" aft of the mast footing pivot, and moving the lower side stays to that. Can anyone confirm if there's a functional reason for their position?

I *might* still do the electric winch in the anchor locker at some point...it would be quite appealing to have it do double-duty as mast-raiser and anchor lift...but this was a simple and inexpensive mod and I expect it will work much better than the original 26X mast raising "system". We'll see tomorrow morn!

Cheers,
Dave

[Tomfoolery]

A couple of mods I'll prob add:

- I have a hydraulic-jack style pipe bender, so I may put some small bends in the gin pole so it follows the profile of the deck when it's in the horizontal position...this should help keep it out of the way of the jib sail. The aluminum is pretty thick (1/4 or so), so I think as long as I keep the bends small and a large radius, I don't believe it will compromise the compressive strength of the gin pole.

Columns lose compressive strength when they're not straight by way of buckling. Do be careful intentionally putting a bend into it, which greatly reduces the threshold.

- Pulling the mast up by the jib halyard makes me a little nervous...ropes do break. I'll prob add a stainless steel cable (perhaps connected to the mast where the baby stays connect, like I've seen in one of the videos you guys posted) instead...I won't be as worried about that breaking.

With the fixed style MRS, used on the boats, the winch line goes to the mast at the same radius it comes off the gin pole, so when the mast is up to the gin pole, the line is horizontal. It sounds like you've set it up so the gin pole moves with the mast instead of remaining just off vertical, like it does with the style MRS. Consider rigging it like the system, with a short line to the deck fitting, and a bale or hound of some sort on the mast for the winch to connect to. Wire rope breaks, too, by the way, and it's harder to deal with, it kinks, and it scratches things like gel coat and aluminium masts. A length of good line, or Dyneema for that matter (stronger than ss rope for the same weight), would be the way to go.

- I'm a little surprised that one or both side stays aren't even with, or just aft of, the pivot point of the mast footing. That would have positioned the side stays so that they were tight all the way up and stopped the mast from swaying to the sides all the way up. Is there a functional reason the side stays are about a foot or so aft of the mast pivot? More force pushing the mast forward that backward maybe? If there's no functional reason, I might consider adding a 2nd chainplate (is that the right name?) on either side maybe 1" aft of the mast footing pivot, and moving the lower side stays to that. Can anyone confirm if there's a functional reason for their position?

Yeah. They hold the mast up. Not trying to be funny, either - they're swept back because they balance the horizontal component of the forestay forces, and of course, they take the forward component of the sail forces. The backstay on a fractional rig (forestay doesn't go to the top of the mast) is more for bending the mast to control sail shape, and the doesn't even have a backstay, and there are loads of other boats that don't (like most modern Hunters). Aside from that, the lower side stays have to be swept back to counter the forward component of the compressive load in the spreaders on the upper side stays, which are also swept back. Moving shrouds is asking for a bent mast, or a dismasting.

[davesisk]

Ah, OK...got it on moving the shrouds.

Went sailing today...raising and lowering the mast was much easier, as anticipated. Now, if I could just find a better way to walk it back and forth without all the tangling....

One of the spreaders broke off, however! I *think* I ran it into some low hanging branches on trees at the boat ramp. What do you guys recommend in terms of replacing the spreaders? I could easily and inexpensively cut and drill aluminum tubing of the right size. I'm sure there's a supplier for replacement spreaders too. What do you guys recommend?

Thanks,
Dave

[mastreb]

I just reattached the gin-pole and lowered the mast for the first time since last summer as I'm now in mast-up at a Marina. It was remarkably easy, and I realized that no matter how you slice it, there's going to be just about the same amount of rigging to get the mast up or down. Me cranking isn't the big time-waster, it's all the hookup. So I'm off the idea of an electric mast raiser. With all the stays, halyards, lines, etc. going everywhere there's just no real advantage to it. I've always used the Mac M gin pole however, which is about as easy as it gets.