Thinking about snagging an Endeavourcat 30 catamaran...

[davesisk]

Alex, are you serious about that? I would definitely need some help moving it to NC...I'm not experienced enough to attempt that by myself. I got a quote from a licensed captain to come help me...not exactly cheap. It's about 235 nautical miles I believe. The easiest thing to do would be just pay a captain to move it here for me...but where's the fun in that? There's some great learning to be had in that trip.

Cheers,
Dave

[Seapup]

Alex, are you serious about that? I would definitely need some help moving it to NC...I'm not experienced enough to attempt that by myself. I got a quote from a licensed captain to come help me...not exactly cheap. It's about 235 nautical miles I believe. The easiest thing to do would be just pay a captain to move it here for me...but where's the fun in that? There's some great learning to be had in that trip.

Yeah, I sent you a PM.

[Catigale]

Dave...what kind of coin are you talking here? If its over 25k I would seriously consider a marine survey as a purchase contingency.

[davesisk]

Hey...yeah, based on some of the pics and some other considerations, I am planning to get at least a basic survey at this point.

Cheers,
Dave

[Catigale]

You choose surveyer, seller pays half but owns survey.

Win for seller because if you don't buy, seller can still use.

[davesisk]

So...I've got an accepted offer. I'm driving up this weekend to do a water-test and check out all the on-board systems. Current plan is to get a scuba diver to take a quick look underwater at the hulls, and get a minimal in-water survey of any concerns I find this weekend and overall for anything I missed. The seller is a really nice fella, and he's fixing a few broken things before I get there (like the macerator in the head was frozen up, so he's replacing it).

Wish me luck with this! If everything continues to go well, there will probably be a 26X with new motor on the market soon.

Dave

[Tomfoolery]

Current plan is to get a scuba diver to take a quick look underwater at the hulls . . .

If you or the diver have a GoPro Hero, ask him/her to shoot some underwater footage of it, especially of any problems, so you and the seller can both see it. FWIW.

Wouldn't cost much to have the marina haul it and hold it on the Travelift while the bottom is checked, though. They often will haul it and leave it on the lift overnight while you do your thing, as that doesn't tie it up since it's not being used anyway. I don't know if anything special has to be done with catamarans, though, as the squeezing forces aren't trivial. And they're really wide.

[K9Kampers]

Hey, what could go wrong?!

Wow, looks like there might be more to deal with hear than previously suggested. How does a person know when it's the right time to walk away? (Never bought a used boat before).

LOL. Is this sarcasm, or are you being sincere?

Usually right after the commitment is made!

[Catigale]

Current plan is to get a scuba diver to take a quick look underwater at the hulls . . .

If you or the diver have a GoPro Hero, ask him/her to shoot some underwater footage of it, especially of any problems, so you and the seller can both see it. FWIW.

Wouldn't cost much to have the marina haul it and hold it on the Travelift while the bottom is checked, though. They often will haul it and leave it on the lift overnight while you do your thing, as that doesn't tie it up since it's not being used anyway. I don't know if anything special has to be done with catamarans, though, as the squeezing forces aren't trivial. And they're really wide.

Sounds like an upstate NY thing...in the city, they charge you 1.5X for overtime....

[Seapup]

So...I've got an accepted offer. I'm driving up this weekend to do a water-test and check out all the on-board systems.

Hey Dave, Any updates? How did the inspection go?

Wish me luck with this! If everything continues to go well, there will probably be a 26X with new motor on the market soon.

Thought maybe we would get to see an X with a diesel outboard...

[davesisk]

Hey guys...so, yeah, marine survey done. Hull is in great shape, lots of minor things that need repair (many of which I already knew about). The head needs a little work, but seller is working on that. Biggest issue: The diesel fuel tank has a slow leak...it's rusted around the bottom (steel tank) and seeping fuel. There's not much fuel in it, so in all likelihood fillin' er up for the trip here would result in gushing rather than seeping diesel fuel.

I've got the local boatyard that did the haul-out looking at it to give me a quote on the repair cost. I'm trying to remember how this looks, but the surveyor said that a bulkhead (I believe the one in the lazarette) would have to be cut out to pull the tank out and replace it. This probably isn't as bad as it sounds...there's very little wood on that boat, but this is some that is soft/partially rotted anyway. I'm not sure what to expect in terms of price...I don't expect cheap, but I don't expect astronomical either.

I had posted my Mac26X for sale when I gave the seller of the cat a deposit...looks like I already have a verbal offer to buy it, buyer will be sending a deposit as soon as I get some paperwork back to him.

Sorry seapup...keeping the diesel on the cat! (Although, I'll bet slapping a Yanmar D27 on a Mac would work quite well...would push it hull speed easily but barely sip fuel.)

Dave

[davesisk]

Hey guys...just stumbled across this old post, figured I'd update it.

So, I did pick up this Endeavourcat 30 and sold the MacGregor 26X...and haven't looked back. I love this boat! In making a careful purchase with a marine survey, etc., I ran into a lot of delays in completing the deal. For instance, the survey said the diesel fuel tank was leaking, so I negotiated with the seller, got a price drop to cover replacing the aluminum tank with a similarly sized poly tank...then decided to have the nearby boatyard who was going to replace the tank pressure test it first, and it turned out that it wasn't leaking at all. (Funny how they were more than happy to replace it without suggesing a pressure test, eh? )

Anyway, the deal was done at the end of October, 2013, and by November 2013, it had gotten quite cold. I had planned to hire a licensed captain to help me navigate through the difficult areas in VA (like the Naval base, all the locks and bridges, etc.)...I kept delaying because of being busy at work, so the captain I hired just said "I can just bring it down for you if you'll cover my expenses for another crew member"...I agreed to this. So, this guy (Capt Nic from Florida) turned out to be a real winner (I'm being sarcastic)...the 3rd day out, he called as soon as he left the marina and said "Your motor is broke". Got it towed back to the marina, and got a mobile diesel mechanic to come take a look. The diesel mechanic called me back and said "That diesel outboard is toast...he ran it with no oil in it". After talking to this captain, it turns out he actually KNEW there was an oil leak ("Yeah, I saw it and wiped it up with a rag"), but neglected to check the motor oil level every morning. Ai ai ai. He at least stayed with the boat until it got to the boatyard, then I sent the brainless idiot home. He actually had the nerve to ask "Are you going to pay me the rest of my delivery fee?"...I said "What do you think? Did you successfully deliver the boat? You probably don't want to contact me again, lest I ask you to pay for the outboard replacement."

After 2 months in the boatyard in Chesapeake, the EC30 had it's new 30hp Tohatsu 4-stroke fuel-injected gasoline outboard, and the fuel system switched over from diesel to gasoline. I hired a 2nd captain to bring it the rest of the way...the guy had great references (I checked them all this time), and delivered million dollar yachts for one of the dealerships in the area. On route to NC, he complained that the new engine was set too high...I said "OK, let's get it to the next boatyard south, I'll get this diesel mechanic I know to add a plate to lower it". This highly-recommended delivery captain called me that night..."Umm...I hate to tell you this, but I ran the mast into a bridge". Seriously? This guy had been delivering yachts for 17 years...I asked him if he had been drinking. Bridge heights are on the charts...they are in the GPS...it's even painted on the bridge. I don't know what this guy was thinking..."Hmmm...45 foot bridge, 47 foot mast...hey, maybe I can pop a water wheelie and get under it?" Who knows. Regardless, he agreed to pay for the repairs, which at the time appeared to be just front stay bracket on the mast broken. He did pay for that. He didn't want to bring it the rest of the way (this was now around Roanoke Island) and I didn't want him to, so I found two sailors to bring it the rest of the way. And they did...successfully...without a scratch on it...and even fixed some things on the way. Great guys! The boat I bought in October finally made it here the following April.

When they got it here though, there was more bad news...the keel-stepped mast had been almost completely severed about 2" below the deck from idiot #2 running it into the bridge. And it's obvious from examining the damage and the degree to which it bent that he didn't hit the bridge and stop...he hit the bridge and just kept going! The massively constructed deck held the mast in place (this boat is built like a friggin' tank...I'm not kidding...it'll still be floating 100 years from now, although other parts will surely be falling off of it by then). It was mid-May by the time I found 2 local boatyards who could do a repair (either cutting and deck-stepping the mast and adding a compression post, or just sleeving the mast, which is the more typical mast damage repair for masts of this size). I decided to just enjoy the boat over last summer and fall by just motoring around the local area, instead of immediately putting it right back into a boatyard for the 3rd time before I even got to enjoy it. (Boy, if I could get those 2 idiot delivery captains side-by-side in person, I would seriously slam their heads together a few times.) It's now April 2015, and it's time to get that old girl in the boatyard for this mast repair so I can actually sail her. And I will hit the idiot #2 with the repair bill...he didn't report the accident to the Coast Guard, so he could possibly lose his captain's license for neglecting that little bit of it...let's just say I have leverage if necessary.

I'm pretty sure that me and a bunch of drunk buddies with no charts and not really knowing what the h3ll we were doing could have gotten the boat here without that much damage...we might have run aground a time or two in the ICW or something similar, but I have enough common sense to check the oil level (especially if I know there's a slow leak), and I think I actually have enough common sense to not run the mast into a bridge too.

So, a couple of things I've learned:

1) For some things, bigger really is better. The interior room of that Endeavourcat 30 is crazy compared to the 26X I had before. My daughter has her own private stateroom (she detested the 26X, but loves the EC30...it's "our yacht" now...LOL)....most of the cabin is standing headroom. It's really comfortable, and we're not so jam-packed that 3-4 people are stumbling over each other. To put this into perspective, take two 26X hulls, stretch them another 4' in length, stretch them tall enough that you've got 6'2" of standing headroom, put a small stateroom with dresser, queen-size bed, and standing headroom at the aft side of each hull, put a real head with closing door and a shower in a separate compartment, both with standing headroom, in one hull, and put a 120v/12v fridge, propane stove, sink with pressure water, and some storage in the other hull, then put a bridgedeck between them that has a huge settee that lowers to make a king size bed, then add a sail plan with a huge main and a smaller self-tacking jib, and you've got a really good package. It's about 3X as much boat, and IMO was worth the 2X price difference from the 26X that I had. I do still want something bigger and a little newer (an Endeavourcat 36, Endeavourcat 44, or a Victory 35, all made by Endeavour, or possibly a later model Gemini), but I've got it good enough with the Endeavourcat 30 that I can wait on that for at least several more years. It sails really well, it doesn't rock around like crazy, and it's not nearly as much work to sail as the 26X. The only drawbacks I can think of: you can't tow it down the highway to winter storage (but for me, I like having it there waiting whenever I want to drive the 2.5 hours to go there, and with an outboard, there's very little "winterizing"...tilt the motor up, and run all the water out of the water tank), and I can't get it into areas as shallow as the 26X can go (the EC30 has a 3' draft)...but it's big enough to carry a dinghy that can get me into even shallower areas. The EC30 plus all the cats I mentioned above have a beam that will fit into a standard-size slip for their length, so none of those require paying for a "double slip". Unfortunately, all of them are about $100K more than what I currently have...so, I can live with the compromise, at least for a while. The things they could have done better on this EC30 was to raise the cabin enough that you don't have to duck going up and down the hull steps, and to put a hardtop over the cockpit (like the Gemini's) instead of canvas.

2) Those old Yanmar D27 and D36 diesel outboards are loud and a little smokey, but start every time and will run for 50+ years if you maintain them (and...ummm...don't try to run them without motor oil in them). The new Tohatsu 4-stroke EFI gasoline outboards are quiet, reliable, powerful, have a backup pull start with the EFI circuit separate from the ignition circuit (the only EFI outboard that you can pull-start if necessary), and are the best value out of all the outboards, IMO. However, a 30HP was probably not quite enough for this boat (that 27hp diesel outboard spun a huge prop, because it could)...at some point, I might hang a 2nd 30HP off the back, both for the extra thrust and the redundancy.

3) I'm now convinced that about 70-80% of "marine workers" are "marine workers" merely because they are too friggin' dumb to do anything else, other than maybe drive a boat without breaking it (and apparently, at least 2 of them are too stupid to even do that). I also know that there are a few (prob 20-30%) that are actually intelligent, know what they are doing, and do it because they love it. The rest are experimenting and figuring out how to do things by using YOUR boat to learn on. Be VERY VERY wary of any "marine worker"...ask for, and check references, until you have exhausted every single one of them, then ask everyone you've ever met if they know the person is legit. I'm not kidding...these boneheads increased the price of the boat by 50% so far by running the motor with no oil in it and running the mast into a bridge, both of which are just completely brainless things to do.

Cheers!
Dave

[Seapup]

Thanks for the update!

Just last week while in the ICW I thought back about that boat while watching a few cats and wondered how it turned out. Sorry to hear about the captains...you should have taken me up on the offer to help move it Your experience with the marine services was one of my hesitations with it. With the mac its all user serviceable, the EC is a lot more boat. Sounds like for your family its perfect though.

I hope the mast repair goes smoothly. Be sure come back and update again down the road!

[Ixneigh]

There was an older prout cat in a yard I visited recently. It's about four times the everything that my Mac is except five times the speed. It's also about four times more then I could safely handle by myself. The speed is very attractive however.
Re million dollar yacht dude, he was probably approaching the bridge with a good current behind him and forgot that he didn't have two 1500 hp turbo deisels to slow down with
Ix

[davesisk]

There was an older prout cat in a yard I visited recently. It's about four times the everything that my Mac is except five times the speed. It's also about four times more then I could safely handle by myself. The speed is very attractive however.
Re million dollar yacht dude, he was probably approaching the bridge with a good current behind him and forgot that he didn't have two 1500 hp turbo deisels to slow down with
Ix

Honestly, I find this Endeavourcat30 easier to handle than I did the 26X...the sail plan is easier, it doesn't rock around or heel as much, the wind doesn't blow it sideways when trying to dock it, I'm not constantly putting a centerboard and two rudders up/down, it's got safety lines and room to walk around to the bow, it goes where I point the steering wheel. I can almost spin it in it's own length using the motor and rudders, so docking and undocking are much easier. I don't have a windlass on it (yet), but the bow deck is large and safe for fenagling an anchor, and there's plenty of room for my lady friends to lie in the sun in a bikini.

Dude...you should take a look at that Prout...as I understand, it's another one of those boats that is built like a friggin' tank.

On the million dollar captain (funny...LOL)...I think he *forgot* it had a mast...I don't think he had ever delivered a sailboat before, and I think he panicked when it wouldn't go 20 knots under power. He was moving it from the north west side of Roanoke Island to the southwest side of Roanoke Island...direct path was about 2-3 hours, going around the east side of the island was a 6-8 hour trip...he took the short route which required passing under a 45' bridge...his motivation was to use as little time as possible so he made as much money per hour as he could. It's already cost him more than I paid him, and it's gonna cost him about 3-4X more. At least he was a nice guy and offered to pay for the repairs...unlike idiot captain #1 who was not only a dumba$$ but also an a$$hole. (This prick even pinged me up on Facebook a couple months ago, spewing profanities and how he hoped I sank with the boat, and wanted to know when I was going to pay him the rest of the delivery fee for his botched delivery. I said "Is this how you treat all of you customers? You might want to back off to preserve your reputation, if you follow me." He changed to nice and said "You know the boat needed a new motor." I said "It certainly did after you ran it without oil in it, knowing there was an oil leak." Haven't heard from him since. If I hadn't already budgeted replacing the diesel outboard within the first year, I would have pursued getting him to pay for it. At least I could have easily sold it in working condition for almost as much as a new 4-stroke gasoline outboard. I looked at ordering a replacement from overseas...only source for that Yanmar D27 outboard was a reconditioner in the UK...price would have been $12K before shipping for a used one!) Oh well, the good news is that, even with the expected cost of the mast repair, I still have less in it than it's actually worth, according to the marine surveyor.

And Seapup, you are right...I should have paid you to bring it through the VA area, and then joined up/relieved you at whatever point you prefered. You could always drive down to the Wilmington, NC area for a weekend if you want! Let me get the mast repair done first, so we can sail it. What can I say? We learn by doing...in this case, I learned quite a bit by NOT doing.

That said, even with all the problems around getting it here, I immensely enjoyed the boat last summer...I was there every weekend with either a lady friend, other friends, and/or my daughter. My 12 yr old daughter had the summer of a lifetime...and we'll be doing it again this year. It's in a slip at a really nice yacht club (that I'm getting for a killer price) that is a 3 block walk from the little downtown area with restaurants, shops, bars, live music, and another block if we choose to walk to the beach. We spent a lot of time exploring Masonboro Island last summer...it's really hard to get to (even by water), but worth it...7 miles of mostly deserted beach on an uninhabited island. The boat has become the "vacation home" at the beach, and I feel quite lucky to have stumbled across it.

Cheers,
Dave