Outboard help

A forum for discussing boat or trailer repairs or modifications that you have made or are considering.
macowneril2015
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Re: Outboard help

Post by macowneril2015 »

Jimmyt wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:09 pm Have you checked your terminals under the engine cowl?
Just drove out and checked they look pristine, I can send engine images if needed.
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Jimmyt
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Re: Outboard help

Post by Jimmyt »

macowneril2015 wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:04 pm
Jimmyt wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:09 pm Have you checked your terminals under the engine cowl?
Just drove out and checked they look pristine, I can send engine images if needed.
No images necessary at this time. I think something like Starscream's problem has you. Something is loose, or corroded, or partially burned up and is making intermittent contact. Once you've passed current through it, it heats up and contact is diminished. Intermittent failures are often the most frustrating to locate. You just have to systematically work through it.

Remember, it can just as easily be a bad ground connection...

If you have a volt meter, perform the check Starscream suggests. If you don't have one, you can get them reasonably cheap. If you need additional help/instruction on how to perform the check, just say the word. We'll be glad to help you work through it.
Jimmyt
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Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
macowneril2015
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Re: Outboard help

Post by macowneril2015 »

Jimmyt wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:27 pm
macowneril2015 wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:04 pm
Jimmyt wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:09 pm Have you checked your terminals under the engine cowl?
Just drove out and checked they look pristine, I can send engine images if needed.
No images necessary at this time. I think something like Starscream's problem has you. Something is loose, or corroded, or partially burned up and is making intermittent contact. Once you've passed current through it, it heats up and contact is diminished. Intermittent failures are often the most frustrating to locate. You just have to systematically work through it.

Remember, it can just as easily be a bad ground connection...

If you have a volt meter, perform the check Starscream suggests. If you don't have one, you can get them reasonably cheap. If you need additional help/instruction on how to perform the check, just say the word. We'll be glad to help you work through it.

So ran the test Sunday and we only lost 3 Volts when it cranked, very odd it appeared when I reconnected a few wires I left disconnected that everything wanted to work, I had power tilt system on manual but when I hit it, it sounded like motors ran, not sure why it is so hit or miss. Will be able to work on the boat this upcoming weekend. i have a service manual that is not the easiest to decipher but I was able to find in it where an extra fuse should be and will replace it this weekend.
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Jimmyt
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Re: Outboard help

Post by Jimmyt »

While you're there, make sure to look at your ground wires and terminals too. Fuses and fuse holders are good candidates, but a bad ground can drive you crazy too.

Good Luck!
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Tomfoolery
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Re: Outboard help

Post by Tomfoolery »

macowneril2015 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pm So ran the test Sunday and we only lost 3 Volts when it cranked . . .
Did you measure voltage at the battery terminals while cranking, and also at the starter motor's lugs? Sounds like a big voltage drop when you only have about 12.5V to start with. The battery voltage will droop when cranking, and there will be losses in the cables and the connections at each end, but it would be instructive to know how much of each.
Tom
Be seeing you . . .
macowneril2015
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Re: Outboard help

Post by macowneril2015 »

Tomfoolery wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 am
macowneril2015 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pm So ran the test Sunday and we only lost 3 Volts when it cranked . . .
Did you measure voltage at the battery terminals while cranking, and also at the starter motor's lugs? Sounds like a big voltage drop when you only have about 12.5V to start with. The battery voltage will droop when cranking, and there will be losses in the cables and the connections at each end, but it would be instructive to know how much of each.
Maybe I need some help figuring out how to run the test. Will post an image of the tester when it was just at steady state at where the battery cables connect on the engine.
macowneril2015
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Re: Outboard help

Post by macowneril2015 »

Jimmyt wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:21 pm While you're there, make sure to look at your ground wires and terminals too. Fuses and fuse holders are good candidates, but a bad ground can drive you crazy too.

Good Luck!
What do you mean by bad ground and how do I check / find out if that is the issue?
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Jimmyt
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Re: Outboard help

Post by Jimmyt »

The black wire from the negative terminal of the battery is typically connected to the engine block, and there may be other black wires connecting various components to the block as well. This is typically referred to as ground wiring.

If you have a long set of jumper cables, you might try going from the negative terminal of the battery to a bare spot on the block or starter body. That way, you establish a good ground and can check your tilt/starter to see if it's different/improved. Since your problem hits both start and tilt, it is likely on a main power, or main ground section.

The red wire from the positive terminal gets most of the attention, but a faulty ground wire will stop you just as fast.

If I missed your question sorry. Hope I answered what you asked.

PM me if you need to talk on the phone.
Jimmyt
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Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
macowneril2015
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Re: Outboard help

Post by macowneril2015 »

So a little update, this weekend I was able to get decent weather to get to the boat and everything worked like a charm, not sure if warmer weather helped or if me changing the order of the cables on battery terminals helped but we seem to be in the clear so I greatly appreciate all the help. One final question that came from this is how do you run cables through the bilge? I tried stick on cable holders but that failed, also should I get conduit? Any suggestions are appreciated as I have water intrusion issues I’m working through and I know water and electricity are not friends.
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Jimmyt
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Re: Outboard help

Post by Jimmyt »

Glad you've got it working.

You should attempt to keep the wiring out of the water. You could epoxy the wire supports to the hull or liner. I would try to support it well above the bilge water level. Here is a quickie on wiring that might be of some help.

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/ ... Tech-Specs

Waterproof connections should be used if you've got standing water sloshing around the wiring. However, I wouldn't leave any connections where they can get submerged.

Looking for the source of water would be high on my list.
Jimmyt
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kurz
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Re: Outboard help

Post by kurz »

Jimmyt wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 8:29 am Glad you've got it working.

You should attempt to keep the wiring out of the water.
First yes, best is no water inside a boat.
But if you read the westmarine article about wiring the talk about connections not in the water. They say if a cable can be in water so the connection must be water tight.

I think to hang all the wires high in a Mac is not the easiest to do. So if all the connections are high enough it should hold some time.
I always put some Vaseline on connectors. And hope it helps.
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Re: Outboard help

Post by Banner_IV »

As a general practice when I load cables/wires on to terminals I start with the largest wire first making sure the terminal lug is flat meaning that the cable stand up from the round lug. This keeps the most metal in contact, a common misunderstanding is that the electricity flows through the bolt when in fact it is primarily flowing through the flats of the lugs or ring terminal (the bolt is just there to sandwich the lugs). When taking readings for voltage drop you want to take the readings as close to the load as possible. Cable or wire in the water although not ideal is not a hugh concern, terminals in the water should be avoided. Use continuous runs of wire with the terminated ends as high above the waterline as practical.
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kurz
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Re: Outboard help

Post by kurz »

By the way: My local Dealer did a bad job when installing the motor wire. The original factory wires from the OB motor were too short. So he added 2meters and the connected to the battery. Unfortunately the connection was not watertight and the cables were in the bilge.

After some time the motor started not on the first try. In cold in winter it was not possible to start. Finally I got the problem. The connection was all green. So I installed completely new cables in 35mm2 going DIRECTLY from the bat to the motor. All problems solved since then.
The problem with the :macm: is that the distance from the motor to the battery is quite long.
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BOAT
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Re: Outboard help

Post by BOAT »

kurz wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 12:52 am By the way: My local Dealer did a bad job when installing the motor wire. The original factory wires from the OB motor were too short. So he added 2meters and the connected to the battery. Unfortunately the connection was not watertight and the cables were in the bilge.

After some time the motor started not on the first try. In cold in winter it was not possible to start. Finally I got the problem. The connection was all green. So I installed completely new cables in 35mm2 going DIRECTLY from the bat to the motor. All problems solved since then.
The problem with the :macm: is that the distance from the motor to the battery is quite long.
Yeah, kurz sort of nailed the real source of the starting issues with the M boat. What we might think is crappy design is actually a feature.

🚽Crappy issue 1: the factory does not mount the outboard, so it's a real crap shoot what the quality of the motor install is going to be. Some dealers do an ok job and others do a crappy job, and it has nothing to do with the build of the boat.

🧻Delivery with a motor makes the factory install more costly. Because the boat was designed to be distributed all over the world the idea was to have an army of LOCAL dealers that could service motor install issues LOCALLY. You don't want to go all that way back to the factory for motor issues.


🚽Crappy issue 2: Batteries are far from the transom. On most boats water enters from the transom fittings for steering. On the MAC that drains right onto that flat area between the batteries and the motor and that's the place where most the dealers lay the motor electric cables.

🧻The factory placement of the batteries might not be the common place for a motorboat but is perfect for a sailboat. If the factory DID put TWO, heavy, lead acid batteries against the transom I can tell you the first thing I would have done when I got my boat home is move the batteries to the lowest place in the boat near the center. In my book, batteries are ballast.


The factory placement of the batteries is not a design flaw - it's intentional. That is the best place for them on a lightweight sailboat. They anticipated that some installs would go wrong thus the main reason they limit to 60 HP - not because of the capacity of the transom but because it's the largest motor you can PULL START.


I keep the engine battery cables up out of the bilge with those miniature bungee cords you can get at Harbor Freight:

On the aft bunk center spline drill tiny holes in opposite sides just large enough to fit the little hooks on the ends of these bungee cords* tie knots in the little cords if they are not short enough. Hook the cords under the spline in the little holes and run the wires thru there - to add more wires is easy - you just run the wires and let then lay on the bilge and when your done unhook one side of the bungee and put the wires in the bungee one bungee at a time. (Do I need to send a picture of the installation? :| )

*
Image
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kurz
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Re: Outboard help

Post by kurz »

well, the just cheapest ok-instal was to use heat shrink tubing with glue and it would have last a long time. And hang at least the connection high so it gets not in touch with (salt-)water ever...

I like your bunchy-cord solution. What I normally not use is non-ss-metal in the boat. Having rust can really make your boat dirty. But maybe the cheapest was to use plastic hooks.

But to be honest I don't really think that water can penetrate the isolation of a cable? Or can it?

And yes - PLEASE - send photo from your Install Boat :D


By the way, how dit your local store installe the motor wires in the :macm: ? New cables in only 1 piece or did they connect the wires (in a better way...)?
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