Rig tuning 101 or.....

A forum for discussion of how to rig and tune your boat or kicker to achieve the best sailing performance.
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Scott
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Rig tuning 101 or.....

Post by Scott »

How I do it

Frank C pointed out in the prev thread about this that fore aft angle is in relation to the water, not the waterline so I do it in the slip. Turns out what was 2 deg in relation to the boot was 4 deg on water. Must be that big 40 horses hangin off the transom.

First I slacked the tension on the shrouds upper and lower. Then slacked the backstay. I inserted these quick release pins while I worked.

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With the turnbuckle on the forestay I set the desired mast angle. This year Im starting with 2 deg aft of 90. Bring up the backstay to hand tight only as it will screw with the shroud settings if its too tight.

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Then I put a level across the hatch so I can see it from the mast. When I check my angle (0) on the lower half of the mast I make sure the boat is level. Adjust the lowers first.

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Bring it up 1 hole on each side to the just tight feeling point (Low boing or just before low boing) Checking the angle for true along the way.

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Once I had this set I did the same for the uppers sighting up the mast and tightened it to just before it induced mast bend.

Note to Moe. I used Bills R.A.T. and I dont think theres any way I couldve cranked #300 on the uppers. When I went past "Just tight" it induced serious mast bend.

Once I finished the uppers I brought the backstay up to "just tight"
Be sure to replace the temp pins with the ringy dingy safety style pins. I wouldnt trust the temps.

Thar she blows!!

Image

And for Bill, a nice pic of my Flemished lines.

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Frank C

Post by Frank C »

That's a great post Scott, with lots of ideas I never saw before.
Thanks.
Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL
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Re: Rig tuning 101 or.....

Post by Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL »

Scott wrote: that fore aft angle is in relation to the water, not the waterline so I do it in the slip. Turns out what was 2 deg in relation to the boot was 4 deg on water. Must be that big 40 horses hangin off the transom.
My best guess is that the water in your slip is not level.
That would easily explain the 2 deg difference.
In fact, it could very possibly be off by 6 deg, in the other direction.
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Bill wrote: "In fact, it could very possibly be off by 6 deg, in the other direction."

But, only in the Southern Hemisphere !...?



:D :D :D
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Lease
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Post by Lease »

Hey, fair go!

The water here is not sloped. More like an attractive parabola. It's all done with these wonderful floating graders we invented.

The downside is trying to stop those pesky surfers riding the wave from the blade. Bloody dangerous if you ask me.
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
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Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro »

Your order for the shrouds is the reverse of what is normal.

The normal order is:

Set rake with forestay.

Set mast bend with uppers, also side to side.
(Tightening the uppers will bend the mast
by pushing forward on it through the spreaders)

Lock in the mast bend with lowers.
(This stops further bending and pumping under load)

Set backstay because it's there.
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Scott
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Post by Scott »

Bill made noise:
My best guess is that the water in your slip is not level.
I posted something about this when we pulled our boat this past fall.

Here

Something about the water against your seawall?? As for the parabola (Oz), wouldnt the water only be level in the middle??

Duanne, I could be wrong but logic to me would seem to dictate that you could induce a sideways bend in the mast or spaghetti effect on the lower half of the mast by cranking down the uppers before the lowers. I would think tightened lowers would lock in the perpindicular well before tightening the uppers.

Besides, the desired effect for me was no prebend on the mast and I accomplished that using the sequence that I did.

On edit: Googled the heck out of this and Duanne is for the most part correct, The sequence can be done in the order I described however the tensioning is incorrect. Apparently you should tension your uppers and set your lowers to zero or slightly above. The primary purpose of the lowers is to prevent "Lee sag" in the lower half of the mast. Upper shroud tension controls forestay sag and mast tip leeward sag. (news to me) Ive always thought a rigid stick was the best way to sail. Hmmm
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Post by Catigale »

I got tuned up this weekend....I bent a chainplate last fall trailering - got it 90 percent straightened in a vice, but wanted to tension the rigging for a week or so to make sure the plate didnt straighten out some more.

I used Bills RAT tool for plate adjusts.

I set rake with forestay (I have a quick release lever which lets me release tension too) - this was exactly where I left it last year, no adjustment necessary.

I checked every bolt and nut for corrosion, backing off, etc...I make sure all the locknuts have good resistance to turning. Finally, I raised up the FF2 drum and checked both turnbuckle cotter pins for damage, unwinding, etc I dont have the genny on the foil yet so this is really easy

I walked the upper shrouds up, keeping the mast straight, until got about 4inches of bend - from experience this where I like to sail.

I then tightened the lowers snug to a low pitch - I measured with a Loos gauge and measured 340 uppers, 220 lowers.

I pinned in the backstay by hand tight plus one more chainplate vernier "click" using the RAT tool....THen double checked mast angle and rake - no change.

After one week like this, they have not changed tensions. I can easily pin and tension the forestay with my lever.
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Catigale wrote: ... then tightened the lowers snug to a low pitch - I measured with a Loos gauge
and measured 340 uppers, 220 lowers.
That's pretty tight. :o I've never been able to achieve that much tension.
Sure you checked the LOOS index for a 5/32nds wire size?
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Post by Catigale »

Frank - I could have pooched the conversion but I recorded 34 and 38 on the Loos ...That was the same as I got last year and I think that translated to 320/240 upper/lower

Im in Philly so a distance from my boat unfortunately...
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Scott
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Post by Scott »

Im in Philly (and an engineer) so a distance from my boat unfortunately...
.....means that new math comes into play and when you use the modifier dictated by the supressed ratio of BS to bsb you would undoubtedly arrive at the conclusion that these tests are inconclusive....?

I agree with frank, seems a little high, but I am basing my thoughts on foot pounds as in tourqueage. The handles on my R.A.T. are like 3.5". Seems like you just couldnt apply that kind of leverage. But I am no expert in the loos scale.

Is there different guages for different guages of wire?? No pun intended.
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Post by Catigale »

Right Scott - you cannot put 320 # tension onto the shrouds with the RAT.

I tension by opening my quick release (yielding about 3-4 inches of forestay slack, moving chainplates with the RAT, then retensioning.

I walk the tension up evenly on each side and check the mast after each step.

Am I correct in using the lowers just to stabilise the rig, or do people end up going back and forth between lowers and uppers to get the right rake and bend?

I like my method more...much simpler.... :)

On edit - Addressing your question Scott - the Loos gives you a raw score based on deflection of the gauge - you translate that into tension based on the diameter of the wire you are measuring. with a lookup table.

One Loos gauge covers all Mac rigging - there are larger ones for big boats
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Stephen,
My gauge is on the boat as well. Thought I'd help though, by searching for the Loos index - cannot find it. What I DID find is that lots of the racers' clubs simply specify various Loos numbers for tuning their rigs to mild, moderate or heavy airs (don't even bother with the actual tension).

So when I check tensions this month, it will be for 34 & 38! :D
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Post by Scott »

Yes you can use lowers to stabalize rig. There can some dispute had regarding which to tighten first uppers or lowers. I tightened the lowers first, Duanne tightens his uppers first.

More important than the chicken or the egg is what task you expect each to do.

forestay controls mast rake

Lowers control lower mast lee sag and to a degree lee bend, (if thats an accurate term) They are different.

Uppers control upper mast lee sag and contribute to Mid to lower mast bend (fore/ aft) and they control forestay tension.

Back stay contributes to mid to upper mast bend (fore /aft) and helps control forestay sag.

Keep in mind that I have always tuned boats by feel and eye. I am by no means an expert. I have however put more energy and effort into a proper tune this year than any other.

My post is not intended to be construed as advice but to represent an amalgam of the information I have gleaned from a few library books, many many websites (as there is no difinitive Mac Tuning guide online) and some conversations with a few guys that thought they were experts. (Their expertise compounded in direct correlation to the number of beers they pulled from my cooler)

On edit: I do not intend to tune and retune my rig once I find the sweet spot. If you are a tinkerer Google some of these terms if you havent heard them before. It is amazing the degree some will go to for 1 gozillionth of a percentage point in perforemance improvement.
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Post by Moe »

Here's how I did it:

1. Forestay for rake (full short)

2. Uppers for bend (300+ lbs got 2" on ours)

3. Lowers "lock in" the upper adjustment and help keep the mast from pumping. Was mid-200 lbs IIRC)

4. Backstay just snugged tight, adjusted underway.
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