I know this has been discussed before, but I forgot the number. What is the PHRF rating on a 26X? If I recall most places group it togather with all other 26' Macgregors, which isn't a good thing since the X will probally be a little slower. I will be entering my first race today and I need a number for the application. I will post the race results when I get back.
Thanks
26X PHRF
-
Chuck Healey
- Chief Steward
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: New Hampshire
-
Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
- Posts: 2459
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
- Contact:
Here are some Venture Yacht Club of San Diego race results.
2004 Race Results
They have given the Mac 26 D either a 204 or a 213. Perhaps the higher of these is really a 26C. They have given the 26X's a 359. To me this seems really high, yet even with it the X's aren't fairing that well so I'd try to get that rating to start.
Maybe Tom could shed some light on the appropriateness of this rating. What ever you do, don't let them give you X the same rating a one of the 26 Classics, you won't stand a chance even with Russell Coutts on board.
2004 Race Results
They have given the Mac 26 D either a 204 or a 213. Perhaps the higher of these is really a 26C. They have given the 26X's a 359. To me this seems really high, yet even with it the X's aren't fairing that well so I'd try to get that rating to start.
Maybe Tom could shed some light on the appropriateness of this rating. What ever you do, don't let them give you X the same rating a one of the 26 Classics, you won't stand a chance even with Russell Coutts on board.
-
Tom Root
- Captain
- Posts: 560
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:39 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Annville, PA. s/v-Great White, MacX4787A202,'09 Suzuki DF-50
BTW, our last months race was a Jack and Jill race hosted my Chula Vista Yacht Club, and it was a start type of handicap, and I was fortunate enough to have 3 other boats on my stern at the finish line....uh a bit of an improvement, and they all were boats other than Mac's also. OK, the X fleet was the 1st to cross the start line too! 
Boulder runs their only Mac 26 at 276 (no id as to if an x or not). Quite a few are in the low 300's around the US though.
And Frank is kind of out there on his proclaimed handicap. He is nowhere in the PHRF database for a rating. There are NO Mac26 anythings registered in the Puget Sound.
So either the handicapper was tossing him grief and Frank mistook a joke for fact. Or in absolute frustration the handicapper got tired of FM telling them how bloody fast his boat is and pulled a number out of their you-know-what just to shut him up.
And Frank is kind of out there on his proclaimed handicap. He is nowhere in the PHRF database for a rating. There are NO Mac26 anythings registered in the Puget Sound.
So either the handicapper was tossing him grief and Frank mistook a joke for fact. Or in absolute frustration the handicapper got tired of FM telling them how bloody fast his boat is and pulled a number out of their you-know-what just to shut him up.
-
Schock Therapy
- Deckhand
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46 pm
They have given the Mac 26 D either a 204 or a 213. Perhaps the higher of these is really a 26C. They have given the 26X's a 359.
Wow! 359! That is the slowest rating I have ever heard of. I have a hard time believing the mac is THAT slow! I can't think of a boat that would rate anywhere near that.
Ask ol Frank Mighetto what his club gave him, and how he is doing, haven't heard a peep outta him about this subject, and his assighned PHRF handicap is a very low 135!!!!!! Uh, kinda really makes him dead last in both standing and across the finish line, if ya ask me!
Frank has yet to enter one race. He is obviously terrified that everything he thinks he knows about his boat and racing is going to be proven wrong. My guess is he will NEVER race, until we "winlees" relent and stop putting windward legs on race courses. I suspect that the rating of 135 was a joke in response to his insistance that the 26x was faster than a Melges 24. I do find it interesting that he is not actually registered with PHRF-NW. He kinda reminds me of those kids you see who have racing stickers and numbers all over their cars, that do nothing but cruise for chicks. Frank has sail numbers, so he must be a racer...right?
Get out and race your X, and post what works for you as we all benefit in that respect. There has to be a way to "break the code" in making our boats faster, and I have some idea's, that may , or may not enhance the boat to be a better sailor. Along with an improvement in my own skills, it may someday be possible to lower this extreme handicap, but don't hold your breath out there! It may take several seasons, and many mods to get the desired performance enhancement needed to change the numbers.
I couldn't agree more! I for one am very curious about the performance potential of the Macs. After the seemingly endless debates with FM, I would like to see some more level-headed mac owners explore their sailing performance. I have heard numerous people claim reasonable boatspeeds in certain conditions, so perhaps they can do more than we think. While I have never sailed on a Mac of any kind, I would be happy to help in any way I can. If anyone in the Vancouver area is looking to try racing, I may even be able to get out on the water with them. Sailboat racing is a very challenging and addictive sport, and I would encourage any sailor to give it a try. It will not only teach you how to sail faster, it will also teach you how to handle your boat more effectively and safely whenever you are sailing. You will also find that a boat that is raced tends to be better rigged than one that is not. This is because when you push a boat, it tends to expose the sub-standard hardware, which then gets upgraded to something that is more suited to the task.
Just think how much fun it would be on your next Mac rendezvous, when you leave your fellow mac owners behind under sail! It is far more satisfying than beating them because you have a bigger engine!
Wow! 359! That is the slowest rating I have ever heard of. I have a hard time believing the mac is THAT slow! I can't think of a boat that would rate anywhere near that.
Ask ol Frank Mighetto what his club gave him, and how he is doing, haven't heard a peep outta him about this subject, and his assighned PHRF handicap is a very low 135!!!!!! Uh, kinda really makes him dead last in both standing and across the finish line, if ya ask me!
Frank has yet to enter one race. He is obviously terrified that everything he thinks he knows about his boat and racing is going to be proven wrong. My guess is he will NEVER race, until we "winlees" relent and stop putting windward legs on race courses. I suspect that the rating of 135 was a joke in response to his insistance that the 26x was faster than a Melges 24. I do find it interesting that he is not actually registered with PHRF-NW. He kinda reminds me of those kids you see who have racing stickers and numbers all over their cars, that do nothing but cruise for chicks. Frank has sail numbers, so he must be a racer...right?
Get out and race your X, and post what works for you as we all benefit in that respect. There has to be a way to "break the code" in making our boats faster, and I have some idea's, that may , or may not enhance the boat to be a better sailor. Along with an improvement in my own skills, it may someday be possible to lower this extreme handicap, but don't hold your breath out there! It may take several seasons, and many mods to get the desired performance enhancement needed to change the numbers.
I couldn't agree more! I for one am very curious about the performance potential of the Macs. After the seemingly endless debates with FM, I would like to see some more level-headed mac owners explore their sailing performance. I have heard numerous people claim reasonable boatspeeds in certain conditions, so perhaps they can do more than we think. While I have never sailed on a Mac of any kind, I would be happy to help in any way I can. If anyone in the Vancouver area is looking to try racing, I may even be able to get out on the water with them. Sailboat racing is a very challenging and addictive sport, and I would encourage any sailor to give it a try. It will not only teach you how to sail faster, it will also teach you how to handle your boat more effectively and safely whenever you are sailing. You will also find that a boat that is raced tends to be better rigged than one that is not. This is because when you push a boat, it tends to expose the sub-standard hardware, which then gets upgraded to something that is more suited to the task.
Just think how much fun it would be on your next Mac rendezvous, when you leave your fellow mac owners behind under sail! It is far more satisfying than beating them because you have a bigger engine!
-
Newell
- First Officer
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:42 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Layton, Utah, 96X Fast Sunday, 89D Windancer
26X PHRF
359 seems to be closer to a fair handicap than any lower #. I raced a D that made several more tacks than I going to weather and still was behind over 20 minutes after him giving me 143 seconds per mile in a 4.2 mile race. Having to use binoculars to watch the first place boat beat the second place boat is hard on the ego.
Newell
Newell
PHRF Rating
X owners should have an idea what is happening with our vessels in regards to racing. You will get some notion from the sailing anarchy board
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/in ... topic=2833 which is still fascinated with them (and me)
In a bombshell, the 2004 PHRF NW water balast protocal allows X cruisers to take on or empty water ballast during a race using a raft inflator/deflator as all 26 Macgregor Yachts have. (Only the X was ment by the manufacturer to be operated under sail unballasted so this is the only MacGregor Yacht being allowed to do so.)
The movable water ballast X vessel (movement is on and off the boat) aspires to S2 7.9 or Santana 2023 performance. The Santana 2023 aspires to Melges 24 performance. The Mac26x and Santana 2023 were marketed by MacGregor Yachts and Schock against each other. The X clearly more successful at 5000 hulls in use has potential of replacing the J24 one design vessels (should production be restarted) because that is what the Melges 24 aspired to do.
Add into this the notion that the 5,000 X cruisers have been used as family boats for the last 8 years and that some of these families now have teens interested in racing and I just see nothing but good for the class as far as racing goes even if production can not be restarted. Some background is necessary...
I really do not think production ever would have been halted if not for this Teeters fellow at US Sailing who believes or believed that there is a design flaw in the X. Other naval architects (Taylor for example) say otherwise but US Sailing is the final authority on the Racing Rules of Sailing. Teeters has been discredited but I think this man and the support given to him by US Sailing explains a lot about the X racing situation and production halt.
In anycase, PHRF NW is dealing with the X boats as a class and has always challenged US Sailing. It is kind of a tradition. The class rating is a new development.
In say 2001, each X had to be rated individually as if it were a custom build. Part of the rating proplems I am having involve MacGregor Yachts recomendations regarding lifting a rudder during normal operation. A rudder is a foil and lifting any foil requires a 2 or 3 second adjustment by the new PHRF NW computer based rating mechanism.
What has likely happened to Murrelet in the drop from PHRF of 235 to 135 is that I requested a rating that allows me to operate the vessel as the manufacturer intended. IE lift centerboard and lift rudder and run unballasted - except I added 300 lbs of solid ballast owing to what has been done with the M. There is something to that - I think.
In anycase the re-rating isn't what I expected and I have been asked yet once again to submit sails for measurement. I assure all that Murrelet is PHRF paid in full.
BTW the S2 7.9 at our club is rated 180 or so. Given that, I kind of think a rating of between 180 and 210 appropriate. However, I had understood that S2 7.9s at one time rated at 130.
In anycase no one with an X should feer getting into racing. It is the other way around, the other racers feer the X boats. The better crews are welcoming us, I think. Sure is good to see so many X cruisers at my marina. Must be one on ever dock now.
We are sailing Olympia this week end. How about a race
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/in ... topic=2833 which is still fascinated with them (and me)
In a bombshell, the 2004 PHRF NW water balast protocal allows X cruisers to take on or empty water ballast during a race using a raft inflator/deflator as all 26 Macgregor Yachts have. (Only the X was ment by the manufacturer to be operated under sail unballasted so this is the only MacGregor Yacht being allowed to do so.)
The movable water ballast X vessel (movement is on and off the boat) aspires to S2 7.9 or Santana 2023 performance. The Santana 2023 aspires to Melges 24 performance. The Mac26x and Santana 2023 were marketed by MacGregor Yachts and Schock against each other. The X clearly more successful at 5000 hulls in use has potential of replacing the J24 one design vessels (should production be restarted) because that is what the Melges 24 aspired to do.
Add into this the notion that the 5,000 X cruisers have been used as family boats for the last 8 years and that some of these families now have teens interested in racing and I just see nothing but good for the class as far as racing goes even if production can not be restarted. Some background is necessary...
I really do not think production ever would have been halted if not for this Teeters fellow at US Sailing who believes or believed that there is a design flaw in the X. Other naval architects (Taylor for example) say otherwise but US Sailing is the final authority on the Racing Rules of Sailing. Teeters has been discredited but I think this man and the support given to him by US Sailing explains a lot about the X racing situation and production halt.
In anycase, PHRF NW is dealing with the X boats as a class and has always challenged US Sailing. It is kind of a tradition. The class rating is a new development.
In say 2001, each X had to be rated individually as if it were a custom build. Part of the rating proplems I am having involve MacGregor Yachts recomendations regarding lifting a rudder during normal operation. A rudder is a foil and lifting any foil requires a 2 or 3 second adjustment by the new PHRF NW computer based rating mechanism.
What has likely happened to Murrelet in the drop from PHRF of 235 to 135 is that I requested a rating that allows me to operate the vessel as the manufacturer intended. IE lift centerboard and lift rudder and run unballasted - except I added 300 lbs of solid ballast owing to what has been done with the M. There is something to that - I think.
In anycase the re-rating isn't what I expected and I have been asked yet once again to submit sails for measurement. I assure all that Murrelet is PHRF paid in full.
BTW the S2 7.9 at our club is rated 180 or so. Given that, I kind of think a rating of between 180 and 210 appropriate. However, I had understood that S2 7.9s at one time rated at 130.
In anycase no one with an X should feer getting into racing. It is the other way around, the other racers feer the X boats. The better crews are welcoming us, I think. Sure is good to see so many X cruisers at my marina. Must be one on ever dock now.
We are sailing Olympia this week end. How about a race
-
Erik Hardtle
- First Officer
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:45 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: New Bern, NC
- Contact:
Lets All Remain Calm
Down Schock.... Tripp Gal hold it in.... don't start something you know will not ever finish...
Lets All Remain Calm...
Just consider the source.... and do like we do... if you hold still long enough it will just go away.... for a little while.
Quote for this thread
"The Manufacturers intent is a mystery unless you ask him personally and off the record..."
Lets All Remain Calm...
Just consider the source.... and do like we do... if you hold still long enough it will just go away.... for a little while.
Quote for this thread
"The Manufacturers intent is a mystery unless you ask him personally and off the record..."
-
Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
- Posts: 2459
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
- Contact:
Duck, run for cover. I hear Murrelet is entering the America's Cup as well. It's so damn fast.
Frank, why would you go and ask for a lower number and ruin any chance an 'X' would ever have to compete on an even playing field. Just admit your boat is slow, take the high number and enjoy the race. After a few years of topping the standings then you will be justified in claiming an 'X' is the be all end all racer it is only in your mind.
Oh wait, I guess you would actually have to ENTER a race first. The numbers on the sail are cute though. I think I'll get my magic marker out and add some of my own.
Erik, you forgot to ask the French guy on 'J' dock.
Frank, why would you go and ask for a lower number and ruin any chance an 'X' would ever have to compete on an even playing field. Just admit your boat is slow, take the high number and enjoy the race. After a few years of topping the standings then you will be justified in claiming an 'X' is the be all end all racer it is only in your mind.
Oh wait, I guess you would actually have to ENTER a race first. The numbers on the sail are cute though. I think I'll get my magic marker out and add some of my own.
Erik, you forgot to ask the French guy on 'J' dock.
-
Schock Therapy
- Deckhand
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46 pm
>sigh<
No, I'm not going to bother responding to frank's ramblings. He's said nothing new, its all cut-and-paste from other posts.
Frank has already pronounced Tripp Gal and myself as trolls for coming to this board....right Frank?
I do have one question Frank: I understand you crewed on the S2 7.9 Sugar Magnolia for a race. Did you gain any understanding of the windward leg, and the fact that there is more to it than "you go up, you go down"?
No, I'm not going to bother responding to frank's ramblings. He's said nothing new, its all cut-and-paste from other posts.
Frank has already pronounced Tripp Gal and myself as trolls for coming to this board....right Frank?
I do have one question Frank: I understand you crewed on the S2 7.9 Sugar Magnolia for a race. Did you gain any understanding of the windward leg, and the fact that there is more to it than "you go up, you go down"?
-
Tom Root
- Captain
- Posts: 560
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:39 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Annville, PA. s/v-Great White, MacX4787A202,'09 Suzuki DF-50
Schock Therapy wrote:
Wow! 359! That is the slowest rating I have ever heard of. I have a hard time believing the mac is THAT slow! I can't think of a boat that would rate anywhere near that.
Believe it, and even that rating seems to be too low....sigh...
But we still get out and slog around the course, Guest/Ken, had the best anology here, in saying going to weather is like hearding cats..
And brutally honest also! I have not given up ALL hope at this point, as our saviour Frank M., is about to show us ALL how to tame this unruly cat!
The offer still stands Frank, my boat, your boat, you crew or skipper, and show me how to win a race
Or simply get some documented results.....we are waiting!!!!!!
Wow! 359! That is the slowest rating I have ever heard of. I have a hard time believing the mac is THAT slow! I can't think of a boat that would rate anywhere near that.
Believe it, and even that rating seems to be too low....sigh...
But we still get out and slog around the course, Guest/Ken, had the best anology here, in saying going to weather is like hearding cats..
And brutally honest also! I have not given up ALL hope at this point, as our saviour Frank M., is about to show us ALL how to tame this unruly cat!
The offer still stands Frank, my boat, your boat, you crew or skipper, and show me how to win a race
Or simply get some documented results.....we are waiting!!!!!!
Used boat sellers.
RE: Frank has already pronounced Tripp Gal and myself as trolls for coming to this board....right Frank?
I respond. Love ya right back. For the record: Tripp Gal and Schock Therapy likely are folks trying to get Mac26x owners to veiw some under 40 foot monohull as an upgrade. We have seen it so many times and yet these two have much to teach us - especially about racing. So hopefully they will stick around and pronounce me wrong. Just a refresser
The important thing in boat selection is not boat length but boat speed. There is a relationship of length to speed in displacement hulls so many recognize that bigger is what you want when you want more speed in a displacement hull.
Those of us (I am one) who were saving for an upgrade, and have looked around, know for certain that there is nothing before 40 foot in monohull sailboat that is even remotely an upgrade to what we already own.
The M is worthy but a lateral move. The Oden or Mast 820 is worthy but again a lateral. The multis especially Corsairs - well yes a 27 or a 31 footer. But seriously nothing until 40 foot in a mono has the features we have come to expect in a vessel, that being speed, stability, ocean capable, and solid flotation. Even at 40 foot in a monohull you start giving up things like solid flotation. Thats a big deal. Lets not kid ourselves on that.
We are better off chartering when crew size gets to large or setting out tents ashore and keeping our vessels or gasp purchasing Bayliners. If that happens - get a Tasar. No reason to give up sailing just owing to family size.
I respond. Love ya right back. For the record: Tripp Gal and Schock Therapy likely are folks trying to get Mac26x owners to veiw some under 40 foot monohull as an upgrade. We have seen it so many times and yet these two have much to teach us - especially about racing. So hopefully they will stick around and pronounce me wrong. Just a refresser
The important thing in boat selection is not boat length but boat speed. There is a relationship of length to speed in displacement hulls so many recognize that bigger is what you want when you want more speed in a displacement hull.
Those of us (I am one) who were saving for an upgrade, and have looked around, know for certain that there is nothing before 40 foot in monohull sailboat that is even remotely an upgrade to what we already own.
The M is worthy but a lateral move. The Oden or Mast 820 is worthy but again a lateral. The multis especially Corsairs - well yes a 27 or a 31 footer. But seriously nothing until 40 foot in a mono has the features we have come to expect in a vessel, that being speed, stability, ocean capable, and solid flotation. Even at 40 foot in a monohull you start giving up things like solid flotation. Thats a big deal. Lets not kid ourselves on that.
We are better off chartering when crew size gets to large or setting out tents ashore and keeping our vessels or gasp purchasing Bayliners. If that happens - get a Tasar. No reason to give up sailing just owing to family size.
RE: The Manufacturers intent is a mystery unless you ask him personally and off the record..."
I respond, that is true unless the manufacturer puts the intent in print. I just love that they did that with the Mac26x. I will never tire of reading and posting the following from the Mac26x brochure.
(1) with the water ballast tank full and conservative sails, the 26 is an extremely stable sailboat, ideal for a beginer. (2) With the big genoa jib of spinnaker, it is a conventional self righting sailboat with outstanding sailing speed. (3) Unballasted, it is one of the wildest and potentially fastest sailboats around. Under power (1) without ballast, it is a rather fast conventional cabin cruiser, or (2) with the water ballast, a docile, heavily ballasted powerboat.
That is intention - big huge wonderful willfull intention. Movable (on and off) water ballast makes this happen.
Dwane, I should be on Lake Wasington Tuesday night rigging Sathsprey. If there is time perhaps we will also check out the duck dodge on lake union. It would be great to see you.
Schock and Tripp may be helping to get more X boats racing. I hope that is what they are up to. There is always hope.
I respond, that is true unless the manufacturer puts the intent in print. I just love that they did that with the Mac26x. I will never tire of reading and posting the following from the Mac26x brochure.
(1) with the water ballast tank full and conservative sails, the 26 is an extremely stable sailboat, ideal for a beginer. (2) With the big genoa jib of spinnaker, it is a conventional self righting sailboat with outstanding sailing speed. (3) Unballasted, it is one of the wildest and potentially fastest sailboats around. Under power (1) without ballast, it is a rather fast conventional cabin cruiser, or (2) with the water ballast, a docile, heavily ballasted powerboat.
That is intention - big huge wonderful willfull intention. Movable (on and off) water ballast makes this happen.
Dwane, I should be on Lake Wasington Tuesday night rigging Sathsprey. If there is time perhaps we will also check out the duck dodge on lake union. It would be great to see you.
Schock and Tripp may be helping to get more X boats racing. I hope that is what they are up to. There is always hope.
PHRF Under 200
Oh there isn't any doubt that the X will be rated under 200 by PHRF NW. Again the difference pre 2004 and today is that there is now a water ballast protocol. It allows you to blow out the ballast on the X for light wind racing or for down wind legs. What this means is that the boat has to be rated like a sport boat. Something along the lines of an S2 7.9 or Santana 2023 or even Trip 26. Remember the X is known to sail in double digits (17 MPH according to the manufacturer) and many of us hit double digits in normal wind even fully ballasted. The boat is revolutionary. MacGregor yachts knew that out of the gate. It is the movable water ballast (on and off boat) that makes it so. Many engineer types also figured this out and it explanes the word of mouth advertising that caused 5000 hulls to splash in 7 years. 14 years would be the expected time for a successful model and that number of hulls.
I am doing some rating work this week end and next week. Should have the thing pinned soon. Will let you know. BTW, anarcy.com has a post from Austrailia putting the X at the top end of a B fleet of trailerable sailboat ratings. With A being fastest and C being cruiser. Something like that will fall out.
Again, the X is the only MacGregor Yacht intended and that intention documented in writing to be sailed and motored unballasted. The research of the minitransats appears to have been used in the design and MacGregor Yachts has even proposed heavy weather sailboat racing as appropriate - just like a minitransat.
I would love to go over the minitransat material with someone. Are you remotely interested - or just interested in keeping X owners in the dark about the true nature of the vessels they own - which truely is awsome. exceding what the manufacture claims by minitransat margins.
I am doing some rating work this week end and next week. Should have the thing pinned soon. Will let you know. BTW, anarcy.com has a post from Austrailia putting the X at the top end of a B fleet of trailerable sailboat ratings. With A being fastest and C being cruiser. Something like that will fall out.
Again, the X is the only MacGregor Yacht intended and that intention documented in writing to be sailed and motored unballasted. The research of the minitransats appears to have been used in the design and MacGregor Yachts has even proposed heavy weather sailboat racing as appropriate - just like a minitransat.
I would love to go over the minitransat material with someone. Are you remotely interested - or just interested in keeping X owners in the dark about the true nature of the vessels they own - which truely is awsome. exceding what the manufacture claims by minitransat margins.