MacGregorSailors.com

Posted: **Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:11 pm**

OK so we are on the topic of mast wiring and this is part of it. I am removing the el-cheapo 50' R58 cable and replacing it with RG8X only this time I will install a thru deck beside the mast then another length of cable from under the deck beside the daggerboard to where the radio is beside the companionway ladder just under the fuse panel. I see there is wire for the light in there but I have not figured out how they got it to run back to the fuse panel. I was hoping to run my VHF cable the same route and then have it come out below the fuse panel and into the back of the radio. Has anyone done this?
I have to remove all those stupid little pieces of syrofoam again, this time I will leave them out.

Previously my 50' length was enough to run down the mast along the cabin top and into the companionway to the radio, too much signal loss. I am reducing the lenth to 40' by going thru the deck. Is this worth it or should I just get another 50' of RG8X and forget the thru deck fitting.

Any truth in the rumor that 90 or 180 degree bends in the wire causes signal loss? I have two such bends at the mast head.

Posted: **Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:42 pm**

Does anyone know what length of pipe to drill the foam in the mast in my M ?

Posted: **Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:58 am**

Yes,
You need two 10' sections only, I think I used 1/2" or 3/4" or maybe 1" diameter, can't remember, but I do remember I bought three sections only to discover I only needed two. Cut teeth into one of the ends of the PVC tube then start cutting through from the TOP of the mast. Once you clear the first section of foam you can pull it out and clean the end of the PVC tube but not after the second section. Glue the two 10' sections together so that they both twist and cut. By the time you get to the third foam section you will have cleared twenty feet of mast and there is no more foam below the mast head light. It s a bit tricky getting the cable to clear around the clutter in that last 10' but with a bit of work it can be done. While you are at it, tape a 35' length of fishing line to the end of the cable to have for future use if you want to install a mast head light you will already have a fish line there to pull the wire through with. I have yet to remove the two sections of PVC tube, they are still in the mast, perhaps I will remove them when I replace the VHF cable.

Posted: **Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:18 am**

So let me get this straight: to glue the 2 pices of tubing together with a pipe union or what?

Thanks for the info.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:54 am**

You might be surprised at how much added weight-aloft that radio cable really is. Unless you're planning to frequently be well offshore ... 40 miles or so ... I'd rather just mount that antenna on the aft quarter.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:16 am**

Is it really significant??

I thought the heaviest coaxs were about 1/2 lb per foot, which I would swag at 15 pounds total, so about equivalent to 7.5 pounds mid mast, or 3 pounds at top of mast....about 2% of the tip over moment based on the 150 pound figure given in the marketing lit

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:58 am**

Catigale wrote:Is it really significant??

I thought the heaviest coaxs were about 1/2 lb per foot, which I would swag at 15 pounds total, so about equivalent to 7.5 pounds mid mast, or 3 pounds at top of mast....about 2% of the tip over moment based on the 150 pound figure given in the marketing lit

Sounds awful heavy to me!
I am getting 50' of RG8X this weekend to replace my 50' of RG58 cheapo, I will weigh it and see to believe.
The antenna itself is likely heavier than all the coax as I got one of those 30" metal Commander brands with the skinny wire top like a car one and a bigger base. Perhaps combined with the 20' of PVC pipe I left behind it might be heavy so I will remove the PVC this time, once I get the new cable in place.
I am not sure about the thru-deck fitting idea as once I am under the cabin top there is quite a long convoluted route to follow along the the OEM lighting wires to get to the fuse panel where the radio is mounted. My Cheapo RG58 cable is 50' and I run it along the cabin top (topside) then into the companionway port side to connect to the radio. I have the last section through fairleads along the hatch slide and even with the mast base up at the bow pulpit the 50' still reaches to the corner of the companionway (just). So to keep it simple I may just do the same thing again as opposed to a thru-deck then trying to follow that convoluted route to the radio which is likely not so doable. Too many twists and turns in wrong directions behind the liner in places where I cannot get my hands. I know it sounds tidier to go thru-deck and it eliminates that length on deck to trip over but I do have it routed along the topside as to have minimal impact on footing.
Actually one does not need 50', I could eliminate a length equal to the distance from the mast base to the pulpit and perhaps have a total length of say 42' and just get some sort of clothes peg style clips along the hatch slide to run the cable thru every time I step the mast.
Any suggestions out there for clothes peg clips?
I currently use those plastic electrical fairleads but they are closed once screwed in place and cannot be reused every stepping without removing the screws. I need a solution that entails re-usable clips.

bubba wrote:So let me get this straight: to glue the 2 pices of tubing together with a pipe union or what?

I just used Gorrilla glue where the tubes join, one goes partway inside the other. Downside is once you get the first 10' section thru you glue the second 10' section to the end then wait a couple hours for it to dry before continuing the cutting job. So go have lunch!

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:10 am**

the following link is for example only - you can buy these things at most automotive, electrical, or radio shacks usually.
http://cableorganizer.com/richco/adhesi ... klips.html
But if you want them to stay remove the double faced tape and use a good adhesive with or without mounting screws - sometimes they have a little circle in the center of the base to drill out and put a screw through.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:28 am**

Coupla thoughts.
Cable weight vs. altitude.
I've got 60' of RG8x that came with my Shakespeare 5215 Whip

It's very light and has low loss. I haven't weighed it, but the whole length can't be more than a couple of pounds. I'm not worried about the weight. If it's that easy to blow this boat down, I'm on the wrong boat.

VHF is line of sight and for most a deck mounted antenna is fine. Most powerboats live with this configuration without complaints. However, altitude does increase range.

For me, we boat on a large lake (30 miles long) with few other boaters. The main emergency monitoring station is on the other end of the lake. My handheld VHF at "sea" level can't reach that end even at 10 miles. Plus we have lots of hills that can get in the way.
As much as the hassle of drilling is going to be, I'm opting for the top of the mast.

Terry wrote:I just used Gorrilla glue where the tubes join, one goes partway inside the other. Downside is once you get the first 10' section thru you glue the second 10' section to the end then wait a couple hours for it to dry before continuing the cutting job. So go have lunch!

Interesting. I assumed you used a standard PVC coupler like this

The obvious problem is that the coupler increases the diameter of your drill bit. But I know that properly glued, the coupler won't come apart. The Gorilla glue idea sounds nice, but my fear is that if it breaks apart mid drilling, I'm stuck with 10' of PVC in there that I can't get out.
Also, you said, "one goes partway inside the other". How do you get 2 PVC pipes to join like this? Do you taper the outside of one and the inside of the other?

I'm thinking of your glue idea and perhaps put a wire or something inside the first pipe as a safety. If the PVC coupling breaks, I could pull the first PVC pipe back out. Another idea is to take a coupler like above and attach it to the leading PVC pipe and carve teeth into it. This would be my drill bit and would bore a hole wide enough to accommodate my coupler later down the pipe.

I'm planning on doing this mod this weekend. How hard is that foam? Is it easy to cut into or hard like a Styrofoam cooler.

eg: Running the cable down the deck.
If you don't mind seeing it, that is the ideal. No connectors means no loss.
I'm too anal to stand to see cable running down the deck and I'm gonna have to figure out a deck connector. I had one on my last boat and had excellent performance. Some kind of rubber boot to keep water out should do the trick.

Thanks for posting your drill bit idea. I would have given up once opening that bugger up and seeing foam.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:08 am**

RussMT wrote:For me, we boat on a large lake (30 miles long) with few other boaters. The main emergency monitoring station is on the other end of the lake. My handheld VHF at "sea" level can't reach that end even at 10 miles. Plus we have lots of hills that can get in the way.
As much as the hassle of drilling is going to be, I'm opting for the top of the mast.

Terry wrote:I just used Gorrilla glue where the tubes join, one goes partway inside the other. Downside is once you get the first 10' section thru you glue the second 10' section to the end then wait a couple hours for it to dry before continuing the cutting job. So go have lunch!
Interesting. I assumed you used a standard PVC coupler like this
The obvious problem is that the coupler increases the diameter of your drill bit. But I know that properly glued, the coupler won't come apart. You got the wrong idea here Russ! The Gorilla glue idea sounds nice, but my fear is that if it breaks apart mid drilling, I'm stuck with 10' of PVC in there that I can't get out. Now I am really starting to laugh
Also, you said, "one goes partway inside the other". How do you get 2 PVC pipes to join like this? Do you taper the outside of one and the inside of the other? OK I can't take it any more I am splitting my gut!
I'm thinking of your glue idea and perhaps put a wire or something inside the first pipe as a safety. If the PVC coupling breaks, I could pull the first PVC pipe back out. Another idea is to take a coupler like above and attach it to the leading PVC pipe and carve teeth into it. This would be my drill bit and would bore a hole wide enough to accommodate my coupler later down the pipe. Ok call the ambulance I now have internal bleeding from excessive laughter!
I'm planning on doing this mod this weekend. How hard is that foam? Is it easy to cut into or hard like a Styrofoam cooler.
The Syrofoam is soft enough for the teeth carved into the end of the PVC to cut it easily but the core cut gets stuffed up the PVC tube so for the first section I pull the pvc out and clear the stuffed core. It sounds like you have never purchased PVC tubing before. Go have a look at it in the store. Each length has one end slightly expanded for a couple inches to accomodate insertion of another section, they come from the manufacturer this way so that it can be extended over many hundreds of feet, it is conduit for electrical wiring.
eg: Running the cable down the deck.
If you don't mind seeing it, that is the ideal. No connectors means no loss. Cool
I'm too anal to stand to see cable running down the deck and I'm gonna have to figure out a deck connector. I had one on my last boat and had excellent performance. Some kind of rubber boot to keep water out should do the trick. Your deck is white so is the cable, it only looks a bit unsightly from the mast base over to the hatch slide, once along the hatch slide it kind of blends in with the slide and is out of the way. There is a small gap at the top corner of the companionway door and upper hatch for entry of the cable to the cabin.
Thanks for posting your drill bit idea. I would have given up once opening that bugger up and seeing foam.

My what an entertaining morning I am having, thanks for the humor Russ!

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:59 pm**

Ok Russ a couple more things;
How hard is it to cut? That depends on how well you prep.
It is not enough to just cut teeth into the small end of the PVC tube, you need to take a file and put a sharp edge on each individual tooth so that it cuts well, actually it cuts pretty good. Once you get the first section cut through pull the saw and clean out the core, then put her back in and head for the next foam section which I think can be reached with the first 10' length. It gets tricky after that, but I think you can still pull the saw and get that second core out then put it back in and I believe mine lined up to the second foam hole first try and I was able to continue on, can't remember for sure but I must have got that core out somehow cause it is not there now. By the time you get to the second foam you will be in 10' and the end you are holding should have a slight flare or expansion on the last two inches of it to accommodate insertion of the next 10' length. It fits quite snug but I glued it anyway, I doubt you have to worry about it comming apart inside, I didn't, the saw is sharp enough that minimum twisting pressure is required (if you put a sharp one on in the first place). Besides you are pushing on it and the flare is gradual and towards you so there is no blunt edge to catch on the foam and make the hole bigger, it just goes through. The job is a lot easier than it sounds, you'll see.
Good luck
I also prefer the benefit of a high antenna.
As far as going through the deck with a cable I think once you start investigating the idea you will quickly give up on it. As anal as I am about things once I started checking into the logistics of it, it became very apparent that it is not worth it. the convoluted route you have to follow plus the extra length required to do it makes it non-feasible, better to just go over topsides and route the cable nice and neatly along the hatch way slider and down to the port corner of the hatch & companionway where there is just enough room to enter into the cabin with all hatches battened. The only unsightly part is from the mast base over to the hatch slide which is only about 18" no big deal, after that it is hardly noticeable along the hatch slide, and if the cable is white like mine it blends right in. Think it over carefully and weigh your options before cutting into the deck with a thru-deck fitting, you may decide it is not worth it and once done it is done, whereas over the cabin top is basically a temp solution that can be changed anytime with minimal repair.
Enjoy!

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:58 pm**

Terry wrote:It sounds like you have never purchased PVC tubing before. Go have a look at it in the store. Each length has one end slightly expanded for a couple inches to accomodate insertion of another section, they come from the manufacturer this way so that it can be extended over many hundreds of feet, it is conduit for electrical wiring.

Oh oh oh oh!!!!

That kind of PVC pipe. Electrical conduit. I thought it was plumbing PVC.
Actually I have several 10' sections of plumbing PVC in my garage that I was thinking of using.

My son and I make marshmallow shooters from the PVC pipe and we have a ton of pieces of this stuff including several 10' sections.

Right! Electrical conduit is perfect. Pieces fit together end to end. Duh!
Well, I have a feeling Bubba (post above) was thinking the same thing as me.

As for the deck fitting. I may try your idea at first. It might be easier and right now I've got a ton of other mods I want to get to. If it doesn't work out, I can always cut a hole in the deck later.

Thanks Terry, glad my stupidity gave you some entertainment.

Hey, at least I asked before gorilla gluing plumbing pipes together.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:00 pm**

Terry, since I've proven no question is too stupid.

How did you "drill" the hole?

Did you just turn the conduit by hand or did you hook it up so a drill somehow?
I'm assuming you can hand crank this "bit" and remove it, clean it, and crank some more.

When I finally do this, I'm taking some pictures and posting them.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:16 pm**

RussMT wrote:Terry, since I've proven no question is too stupid.

How did you "drill" the hole?

Did you just turn the conduit by hand or did you hook it up so a drill somehow?
I'm assuming you can hand crank this "bit" and remove it, clean it, and crank some more.
You absolutely can! Also gives you hands on feel for how well it is or isn't cutting and when you cleared a length of foam.
When I finally do this, I'm taking some pictures and posting them.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:22 pm**

I looked all over this site for this mast drilling info THANKS for listing it.
I am thinking that I will cut the teeth in the expanded end of of the Electrical pvc pipe so the middle section goes thru easier, am I correct in my thinking?

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Mast wiring