A New Journey Begins for OverEasy - 2020/2022

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Russ
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Russ »

OverEasy wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:55 pmAs we approached Beaufort the coughing and sputtering of the engine indicated it was time to change tanks to the half full Starboard tank.)
When we refueled we found the Port tank only required 8.8 gallons. :o :? Does this mean we have 3.2 gallons of unusable fuel in our 12 gallon tanks??? :? :?

My 12 gal tanks will draw down to almost bone dry. Something is not right there.

I'm a horrible mechanic, however, your engine problems all seem fuel related. I know you said the carbs were cleaned/tuned, but not wanting to go to high revs seems like it's starving or choking on fuel. Coupled with not wanting to idle sounds even more so.

Did the PO experience any of these issues? Perhaps the "tuning" actually made it worse.
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by NiceAft »

I have not been following this thread, but just took a peak. If it has already been said about checking a fuel filter, or a blocked line, then sorry, carry on.
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Be Free
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Be Free »

Correct me if I'm wrong on my recollection of your symptoms.
You are seeing signs that the tank cap itself is leaking when the tank gets pressurized due to to temperature increases.
You do not see any signs of any leakage anywhere along the fuel line under the same conditions. (This eliminates the fuel line and connectors as possible sources of air).
The engine consistently stumbles above 2800RPM or so.
The engine sometimes cuts out at idle after the engine is warmed up.

Assuming all of the above is correct any of the following could be causing the symptoms:
The throttle cable is adjusted incorrectly and is not allowing the throttle to open completely. Unlikely given that you are dropping out near the mid-range of your engine. More likely if you were dropping out closer to the high end.

Grossly overpropped. Again, more likely near the high end than the mid range.

The fuel pump is not delivering enough fuel to the carbs. This could be a dirty fuel filter or a weak pump. You can check the filters yourself but checking the fuel pressure requires a gauge.

The float level in one or more carbs is wrong. Without sufficient fuel in the float bowl the carb can quickly drain the available fuel before the fuel pump can increase volume to deliver enough fuel for the increased RPM. Water in the float bowl effectively does the same. If the float level is too high the engine would flood, you would smell fuel, and you would likely see fuel leaking from the carbs. You cannot adjust the float level without removing the carb but you can test for low level (assuming you have already eliminated the fuel pump and fuel filters). Run the engine until it dies and then open the drain screws on each float bowl. If you only get a teaspoon of fuel or so then your float level is too low. If you get most of a full bowl then your float level is not low. If you get water you may have found the problem.

The main jet nozzle has cracks. These can be so small that they cannot be seen by the naked eye. If the nozzles were replaced during the last carb rebuild this is not likely. It is fairly common on older engines. That is why you should generally replace them as part of a rebuild regardless of what they look like.

The carbs were not synchronized correctly. Carb synchronization is almost always required if the carbs have been removed. Sync problems are most pronounced at higher RPM. This requires specialized tools for measuring vacuum on all carbs simultaneously and knowledge of the specific procedures for your engine. It's not hard, but it is unforgiving if not done correctly.

Valve timing can also present with similar symptoms. You can visually check the valve timing on most engines by lining up timing marks on the flywheel with marks on the cam. This is engine specific but not difficult if you have some hand tools and the proper procedure for your engine.

One or more spark plugs gapped incorrectly or misfiring for any reason. The wrong plugs can also give you these symptoms. Easily checked with hand tools.

On the subject of replacing your tank caps, if you are using non-ethanol gasoline you will have minimal (virtually none) issues with atmospheric water vapor entering your fuel. You get water in your tank because alcohol is hydrophyllic.
Bill
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by OverEasy »

Hi Be Free and Everybody

Thank you for your notes.
They are appreciated!

All your assumptions are correct except the fuel leakage is from the discharge fitting to tank interface, not the fill cap.

Yes, we are exclusively using ethanol-free fuel and from high volume reputable sources both when we initially fueled on land and from the Marina we are currently having a slip. We verified that they both have active filtration and water separators.

We are currently keeping the fuel tanks from over pressurizing by leaving the fill caps loose on the tank threads while in use. We are also keeping the vacuum breaker vents open to prevent the possibility of having a vacuum form in the in-use tank. We are closing up both tanks and vents when not in use.

The fuel leakage problem is vapor pressure build up related. This leakage has occurred on both tanks at the ‘discharge’ port to tank interface. We have been able to mitigate this to general success by basically tightening the heck out of the discharge fitting and application of fuel rated gasket compound from Permatex. We have also gotten a sheet of fuel rated gasket material. We will run one tank at a time to empty (at least as empty as it can get) then bring it home to cut and fit a made gasket to the discharge/tank interface. At the same time we will figure out how to improve our usable fuel availability by repositioning/extending the fuel siphon within each tank which will effectively make them functionally permanent PORT and STARBOARD tanks. (This isn’t a problem as we weren’t going the be pulling them out and swapping them anyway.)

We will recheck the engine fuel filter and water separators again. Could have missed something. (Hopefully there is no marina slip swimming involved as personal dexterity is no longer a strong suit anymore... :D :D ).

We just got in a new external fuel filter AND the Fuel Demad Valve pressure regulator from West Marine. Still awaiting the four position fuel selector valve. Once they all arrive we will be mounting it all up as a semi permanent installation. At that time we will be removing the newly installed spray less fittings ( we changed them out last week as we couldn’t find just new o-rings locally so we got the three new connectors which while easier to swap the line from one tank to the other did not seem to have any effect on our engine operationally :( :(.) while the existing fuel line was replaced by the PO we will also be installing new lines to support the new line routings requirements for the tank selector, FPD and external 10 micron filter/separator. The only quick disconnect with be the one at the engine interface which we will check for condition. Note: This could be fun as we will be doing all this over the water in our shared slip. (We may temporarily turn Over Easy the other way round to give us a fighting chance at staying dry and to keep the marina 😆 😂 :D laughter :D 😂 😆 to a somewhat manageable din.)

The spark plugs were replaced and gapped by Butler Marine here in Beaufort when we had the engine serviced in November of 2020. We didn’t get Over Easy into the water till two weeks ago (04/27/21) on our maiden voyage here in SC. When we get to checking the engine filter this and separator this weekend we will pull and check the plugs. At the same time we will recheck the condition of the plug wires and boots as well any other wiring we can see.

On the same note regarding the checking of the plug wires, it was also suggested we check the running engine in the dark to see if there are any errant sparks or arcs coming from anywhere... while this is a bit problematic given the lighting at the marina we have come up with a solution of sorts in the form of a large enough cardboard box and a tunneled side viewing slot. We will give this a try hopefully this weekend fates permitting.

At this time we have no idea if the main jets were replaced as paperwork is AWOL. We will ask Butler Marine.

Timing....that was checked and adjusted at the Nov 2020 service visit. Not something we can readily check at this point in time while on the water. We will keep this on the “TO-GET-DONE” list.

Carb synchronization..we don’t have the tools down here in SC...that stuff is back up in NH....But we do know specifically that was done at the Nov 2020 service visit...We will keep this on the “TO-GET-DONE” list.

Carb floats....that is an interesting one as we don’t believe the carbs have been rebuilt...this is something we can ask the wonderful POs... checking the bowl drain levels is something we might be able to do while turned around in our slip.

Fuel pump....assuming for the moment that the filter is clean the checking of the fuel pump pressure isn’t something we are currently equipped for here in SC... we will ask Butler to check their paperwork from Nov 2020.

The prop is worn but in good condition. We don’t believe the POs have changed it since they took possession but we will ask. We will also check the prop numbers and the Tohatsu recommendation to verify as well as with Butler Marine.

One of the things we are hoping can occur is to get some time with the lead mechanic from Butler Marine on the water so he can see/hear/feel/smell the engine operation dynamically on the water rather than being limited to a barrel or their test tank. (That’s the hope anyway as this is their most busiest time of the year here in Beaufort. Everybody wants to get on the water, have their new Yamahas installed and their last year(s) serviced/tested/inspected/repaired.)

We will post what we get to accomplish and apparent results after this weekend.

We really truly appreciated all the help and advice. Thank you all!!!
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by svscott »

You may have mentioned but I can't recall but were your carbs drained before storing the boat? If fuel was allowed to dry out in the bowls, there could be some deposits clogging the needles. If you're going on more day trips, maybe put some Seafoam or other additive in the tank and run it the motor as hard as you can. I'm not as up to speed on 2 smoke engines and the effectiveness of fuel additives but I feel like my high milage Chevy's (two 4 stroke V-8's and an Inline 6) run better after a couple tanks of Seafoam. Maybe it's just snake oil but just maybe it'll clear a clog.
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Be Free
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Be Free »

It sounds like the leak is between the top of the tank and the plastic part with the gauge, quick connect, and filler cap. If so, then replacing the gasket with an appropriate sealant should fix it. That is just a spill hazard. It won't affect the engine running. It's just like running with the cap open.

If I'm misunderstanding and the leak is at the point where the fuel line attaches to the quick disconnect on the tank then it could affect the way the engine runs.

If the carbs were serviced they would have been removed (requiring them to be synchronized again). A full carb service would involve cleaning or replacing the jet orifice(s) and (likely) replacing the jet pickup tubes. The float level would always be checked after servicing the needle valve (operated by the float).

The idea of a clogged main jet orifice due to fuel deposits is a possibility. Sea Foam or something like it in the fuel may help (can't hurt unless you overdo it). Deposits are more likely to clog the smaller idle jet but it's certainly possible that the main jet it clogged. Old fuel can do nasty things to carburetors.

I have one weird, wild question for anyone out there who has this engine: Does this engine suck gas out of the tank or does it pressurize the tank and force the fuel out? I've not seen a pressurized outboard fuel tank in a long time but I don't want to assume... Hint: it would need two lines connecting to the tank to pressurize.
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by OverEasy »

Hi Be Free

The tanks are new and EPA compliant with the “vacuum vent” only feature. This allows the vapor pressure to build to quite high pressures due to solar and atmospheric temperatures. ( It’s not like the old racing pressurized delivery tanks.)

These tanks have three fittings.
> A fill port with a vacuum breaker vent only cap.
> A fuel level indicator port with a nearly useless “flip/flop” nonspecific value pointer
>> A fuel discharge port that screws into the tank that I turn holds the fuel siphon and hose connect fitting. This is the one that leaks fuel (generally) when the vapor pressure builds in the tank. It relieves the internal pressure of the tank by piddling fuel out from the bottom of the tank until empty..... This is where the sealant and gasket are of benefit to stop the hazard. Bad idea, bad design, bad execution. Better and safer to allow for a pressure relief valve than to force containment like they have done to meet nebulous hydrocarbon escape.

Checked with Butler Marine Service and they only did a tune up and syncing not a carb rebuild.🙁🙁. So all the internal to the carbs aspects are all potentially valid.... :? :? .....

One aspect that we have recently noticed that may have some bearing on the engine issue is the tell-tail water stream has become a very weak weepy dribble at idle and weak at what power level we can get to. In talking this over with several service centers they have said that a worn out water impeller could be a part of the problem. So we went ahead and ordered a new one, have it installed and will have the other things looked at that time. :( :(

Meanwhile we will be doing some checks of our own to see if it is just a minor blockage of the tell-take line or thermostat or malfunctioning temp sensor or other things a 20 year old engine can develop..... Ahhh the smell of two-stroke oil permeating the morning air and cockpit and clothes and hands and.......(Well you get the picture :D :D Welcome to boat ownership!)

🤔🤔 Hmmmm.... Wonder how much a new Suzuki DF50 (or 60 or 70 or 90) would cost and how long to get it installed... :| :|

8) 8) 🐩
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by pitchpolehobie »

I had a similar issue w leaking around my quick connect fuel port. I placed Loctite 565 around the threads and it resolved the issue. I have heard not to use white Teflon tape.
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Jimmyt »

Be Free wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:24 am I have one weird, wild question for anyone out there who has this engine: Does this engine suck gas out of the tank or does it pressurize the tank and force the fuel out? I've not seen a pressurized outboard fuel tank in a long time but I don't want to assume... Hint: it would need two lines connecting to the tank to pressurize.
Single line tank. No modern motors use the 2-line pressurized tank configuration (thankfully). On a normal boat, with the tank below the powerhead, the motor wouldn’t run if the pump was bad - after it ran the carbs dry of the prime. On my boat, the tank is above the motor, so once you start the siphon by pumping the bulb, and you get an assist from the vapor pressure (thanks EPA) of the non-venting tank, a carbureted motor may run with a marginal or bad pump. It may not run well, though - particularly at high demand.
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Jimmyt »

One aspect that we have recently noticed that may have some bearing on the engine issue is the tell-tail water stream has become a very weak weepy dribble at idle and weak at what power level we can get to. In talking this over with several service centers they have said that a worn out water impeller could be a part of the problem. So we went ahead and ordered a new one, have it installed and will have the other things looked at that time. :( :(
Several posts back you said you got a new impeller last November. Unless you’ve been dredging with your outboard, you haven’t killed an impeller that quickly. They last 5-7 years (probably should change sooner, though).

Did they do an impeller kit (changes all of the water pump parts); or just the impeller?
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Be Free
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Be Free »

Thanks for the reply. I did not expect that you had a pressurized tank but I wanted to eliminate the leaking gasket as a source of air intrusion in the fuel line. From your test results I think you can eliminate the fuel line as a suspect.

If they did not do a compete carburetor service then I'd plan to do one when you get back. It is within the ability of a home mechanic if you have the right tools and a service manual. The synchronization/timing/balancing procedure for multiple carburetors is mostly done at idle. You rev the engine briefly and make sure everything comes back to the same level, but the engine is not run anywhere near full throttle. A problem in the high speed circuit in the carb may not show up during the procedure.

Definitely check the float level by running it at high speed until it stalls and then checking the float drain. It's going to be easier in the water than in a tank. If you get about a bowl's worth of fuel in each carb then the float is not suspect. If it is mostly dry then the float or fuel pump is suspect. If you can get it to keep running by pumping the bulb then fuel pump is the likely problem.

Get some Sea Foam or something like it and add it to one of your tanks. You might get lucky.
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Be Free »

Regarding the water pump indicator: it's likely just a clogged outlet tube. I keep a piece of weed-whacker line of the appropriate diameter handy for clearing mine. It's stiff enough to clear most blockages but flexible enough to get well into the water passages.

+1 on the impeller. It's not likely that you have worn it out yet unless you have abused it. In addition to "dredging" you can also quickly damage it by running the engine, even briefly, without water. Absent either sources of abuse you probably don't have an impeller problem.
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by OverEasy »

Hi All....

Thanks Be Free for the great pointers. They will be followed up on.
( I’m just moving slower than usual... back acting up more than usual this past week.)

So we finally got the boat out and turned around and backed into the shared slip without any mishaps other than minor tie-off redoing for a backward oriented boat.

:) :) Not gonna get todo much tomorrow with it being Mother’s Day!!! :) :)

Did probe the tell-tail port but no change.
Water is exiting that exhaust port above the waterline so at least some amount of water is circulating. :) :)

Today we did not notice any water from the tell- tail during warm-up or when maneuvering.
But that exhaust port mentioned above was wet.

Next opportunity will pull cowl and incrementally work inward from the tell-tail to see what we can find. (Will bring a bridging plank or something so I can get close to the engine now that it is repositioned.

Good we got that done today !!!

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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by Be Free »

It sounds like you are getting really comfortable with your boat. It will always be a bit of a challenge with wind and currents at low speed but it does get easier with practice.
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Re: A New Journey Begins for OverEasy

Post by OverEasy »

Hi All!
:) :) 🐩

Yes, We are ‘starting’ to feel more comfortable with Over Easy in the sense that sheer trepidation has given way to stark trepidation... :D :D

Spent this afternoon making a power cord adapter to allow us to go from a three prong twist lock 125VAC 30 Amp slip pedestal outlet to a simple straight 115VAC 15 Amp extension cord to run the battery charger/maintainer. No prefabs available at local hardware store or Lowe’s or Big electrical supply center or Marina chandlery .... who knew that it could take an afternoon to find something that doesn’t seem to exist. :P :P

Ended up buying the pieces and made our own that could still fit within the cover of the slip pedestal.😎😎 Now we no longer have to have our extension cord stretched across the pier footpath to trip people, get stomped on, or rolled over with marina carts :) :)

One of the “sea trial” aspects was adaptation to a marina slip and how to get shore power to Over Easy. It seems that one must have a variety of plug adapters to match up with a variety of shore power outlets. Currently between the Marinas and the Campgrounds we have accumulated no less than 5 adapters for our simple extension cord. :D :D ....who knew?

After getting that out of the way it was on to troubleshooting Over Easy’s engine while we are still turned around in the marina slip. Following the advice of Be Free and others (along with a few hours of related YouTubes and poring over the engine manuals that the POs were gracious to provide us with Over Easy (for which we are very appreciative of!) we removed the engine cover and proceeded to back trace the water circuit from the tell-tale. What we found kind of surprised us! It seems bugs had decided that they needed to build their nest along the length of the tell-tale tube up to the side manifold. What wssurprizing was not only occupying the length of the tube but the creatures were alive and somehow a dribble of water was still able to get out! It was like the critters adapted to allowing water to move past them. Yuck!Yuck!Yuck!🤢🤢

So after cleaning throughly what we could it was time for reassembly and we gave it a try. Voia!!! One very strong Tell-Tale was peeing into the waters of the Marina Slip! Happy Days! :) :)

So at least now e have some certainty that water has been flowing through the engine! :) :)

Next steps are to pull/replace the thermostat, check/replace the over-heat sensor, and change the anodes ourselves. We are still going to have the replacement water pump impeller kit installed when it comes in and have the carbs looked at /re-sync’d by Butler. Going to try and get them to loan us their lead mechanic to do an on-water evaluation before hauling Over Easy out and afterwards to see if the issues we have been experiencing can be resolved.

*Note: Given the age of the engine we don’t know hen the last time the carbs had been serviced nor the water pump impeller. We are not really set up here personally in SC to rebuild the carbs at this point or to re-sync them....... this is where discretion is the better part of valor and we would have Butler Marine do this is it is necessary.

We are looking into ordering a Suzuki DF60AV for later this year. This is a definite TBD as we are being told that three months (give or take a month) is the current projected delivery and installation. That pushes us into August/September.... :( :( .... but it would position us for next year for our existing plans to start exploring the Atlantic ICW.

Hopefully we can stabilize our engine issues shortly to at least a Usable level confidence.

Following this we will be looking at raising the mast while seeing if we can avoid taking a dip.
:D :D

Onward.....

8) 8) 🐩
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