Ida Sailor performance for 26X

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J7Archer
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Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by J7Archer » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:23 am

Hello all,
I used to have a 1989 26D and it had the Idasailor rudder and DB. These greatly improved the boat's performance. I sold that boat "Time Traveler" two years ago and I now have a 26X (Wind Under Her Wings).
I am considering buying the rudders and centerboard from IdaSailor (now called Rudder Craft), but I want some real, substantiated information / opinion for X owners who have installed them.
My chief complaint about the performance of my X versus the D is this: When the wind dies and I have no forward motion at all, then a nice puff or gust comes up, with the X I have to fall off and point down wind far more than I ever did on the D in order to get going. The X just tends to want to side slip. The D would make headway almost immediately. I know that the hull profile accounts for much of this, but would the IdaSailor parts make much difference?
Thanks, Jon

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by Highlander » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:02 pm

Hi Jon
I believe Rudder Craft now make,s the Ida sailor rudder,s from fiberglass instead of the plastic one,s which r known for breaking altho mine r still good ! I know the rudder,s for the :macm: r bigger not sure if the same goes for the :macx: one,s they make

J 8)

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by sailboatmike » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:38 pm

As an uneducated guess, It may be lack of tension in your forestay not getting the luff tight enough rather than anything else.

I find forestay tension with the CDI furler hard to get which may be due to the weight of the foil causing droop in the forstay

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by Hamin' X » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:59 pm

Hi, Jon. Did you ever WUHW's sliding hatch fixed? Lost track of you for a while.

~Rich---Former owner of "Wind Under Her Wings"

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by J7Archer » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:46 pm

Hey Rich! I replaced the hatch with a used one from Bill at Boats4Sail in Wisconsin. The shipping cost was high, but it was the only way to get one. She is looking great by the way. I bought a Dewalt 8" buffer /polisher and put in some hours. Last year I sailed her at Blue Mesa Res., Lake Granby, Dillon and Chatfield. I spent 16 nights aboard last year including 4 nights for my archery elk hunt (access to National Forest right from the shore!) Thanks again! She is a wonderful boat!
.
Mike, that could be a very valid point. I don't always have a lot of tension on the backstay---I will test that theory and will let you know. I often keep minimal rake as I've heard that de-powers the main and also, if the back stay is taut, I can't raise and lower my bimini as easily.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by Signaleer » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:51 pm

Ok, I am particularly interested in the response here.

Is the issue simply that there is a 'more foiled' shape to the rudder and I am assuming board?

I have the :macx: as well, and I don't know that rudders and a board will substantially help this very specific problem. The reason I believe this is the force of the sails during a puff, from slow/stalled state, it almost entirely to leeward in most cases. Even if you took the sails out of the equation, or better, assumed they were generating some lift. The freeboard of the :macx: is also pushing leeward. The size of the board is the problem in this case - there simply is not enough area to resist leeward slippage without lift being generated by the flow of water over the center board or rudders.

I've give some thought of chopping up the inside of the X to install a bigger centerboard for this reason. Won't do it... but have thought about it.

So, those with Rudder Craft stuff. Help me understand?

Ed.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by J7Archer » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:36 am

Ed,
I'm waiting with you. My solution for now is to ease the sheet on the main to the point that it starts to luff while keeping the genoa set to drive. This causes my bow to fall off the wind more quickly, the headsail fills and once I hit about 2.5 mph I can sheet in the main, pick up more speed and then turn back up to my originally intended heading.
The problem is when you don't have room to fall off downwind to pick up speed, ie. lee shore, dock, other boats. I really hope we hear from someone with the IdaSailor rudders and board to see if that made a significant improvement for them.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by BOAT » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:22 am

J7Archer wrote:Hello all,
I used to have a 1989 26D and it had the Idasailor rudder and DB. These greatly improved the boat's performance. I sold that boat "Time Traveler" two years ago and I now have a 26X (Wind Under Her Wings).
I am considering buying the rudders and centerboard from IdaSailor (now called Rudder Craft), but I want some real, substantiated information / opinion for X owners who have installed them.
My chief complaint about the performance of my X versus the D is this: When the wind dies and I have no forward motion at all, then a nice puff or gust comes up, with the X I have to fall off and point down wind far more than I ever did on the D in order to get going. The X just tends to want to side slip. The D would make headway almost immediately. I know that the hull profile accounts for much of this, but would the IdaSailor parts make much difference?
Thanks, Jon
The X boat does not have a dagger board - changing the center board on the X would be a lot of work.

Your boat needs to lean a little to get on a puff of wind to improve the lift of the centerboard - try putting everyone on the leeward side and it might help a little - it's really hard to get a flat bottomed boat to respond when sailing into the wind. Another tactic is to let the main way out and slowly bring it back in to reduce the amount of side slip - I doubt a new centerboard would help - the main problems with centerboards (my previous had one) is because they are not straight up and down or balanced front to back they tend to turn the boat when you drift because part of the centerboard is behind the mast. A new centerboard won't fix that unless you can get ALL of the centerboard directly under the mast (ie: a daggerboard) - if you could do that - the boat would respond better in light air.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by Signaleer » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:07 am

BOAT wrote:
J7Archer wrote:Hello all,
it's really hard to get a flat bottomed boat to respond when sailing into the wind. Another tactic is to let the main way out and slowly bring it back in to reduce the amount of side slip - I doubt a new centerboard would help - the main problems with centerboards (my previous had one) is because they are not straight up and down or balanced front to back they tend to turn the boat when you drift because part of the centerboard is behind the mast. A new centerboard won't fix that unless you can get ALL of the centerboard directly under the mast (ie: a daggerboard) - if you could do that - the boat would respond better in light air.
Uh...no.

The :macx: centerboard is vertical just like your dagger board. That is not the problem. And what you are referring to is that the center of lateral resistance would be aft of the mast. I don't believe the X or the M differ wrt to this. They are both directly aft of the mast and both vertical. I don't know this for sure, but the M may simply be 'bigger' which may provide some help.

The problem the original poster has a simple cause: Freeboard area vs. Daggerboard/Centerboard area. The force to leeward created by the wind on the high freeboard and sails cannot be counteracted with a force by the too small centerboard/dagger board. I would be surprised if the M was materially different in this aspect.

I can sail the X to weather satisfactorily. I've even come to weather (slightly) with the Asym Spinny. ... all of this is achieved, mind you, after getting the boat moving forward as once there is forward motion, the centerboard/daggerboard creates lift... His issue is from still or very slow moving.

My P26 would not side slide much if at all (almost uncomfortably so) in these same conditions.

Quite simply, we need more keel area.

I am still waiting to here if the Ruddercraft users agree/disagree. I think a better foiled board will have an affect, but only after the boat is moving. It would create even more lift.

Ed.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by BOAT » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:20 am

Okay, I guess I am reading these specs wrong or maybe the specs are wrong - I thought the X centerboard had as leading edge going aft of the mast.


Image

I know for a fact the M boat has the DB directly under the mast because I can see it with my own eyes. Based on what your saying the centerboard swings all they way out perpendicular to the bottom of the boat so it should behave almost exactly like the M dagger-board in that case. If that be the situation then the bottom of the boat would be the main issue.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by Signaleer » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:03 am

BOAT wrote:Okay, I guess I am reading these specs wrong or maybe the specs are wrong - I thought the X centerboard had as leading edge going aft of the mast.


Image

I know for a fact the M boat has the DB directly under the mast because I can see it with my own eyes. Based on what your saying the centerboard swings all they way out perpendicular to the bottom of the boat so it should behave almost exactly like the M dagger-board in that case. If that be the situation then the bottom of the boat would be the main issue.
Here's a drawing too... I'm surprised we get any lift.

Image

The drawing you posted is descriptive to show the swing of the board and not an actual, as you are calling them, specification. The centerboard when deployed on an X is straight down. Trust me, I've been underneath the boat when its deployed.

The X alignment of the centerboard vs. the M alignment is so close it is immaterial. The M's slightly larger main should move the center of effort aft what? 6 inches? and the dagger board would move center of lateral resistance forward 6? Maybe.. These are not material to the question asked.

I'll restate. Freeboard area vs. Keel Area ... both boats are within the margin of error on this problem. We both need more keel to achieve the results he is asking for.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by BOAT » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:11 am

Yeah, like I said if the centerboard is swinging all the way down perpendicular to the bottom of the boat I can't imaging it would make any difference at all - the two keels would work exactly the same - so again, that leave only the bottom of the boat -

It's the bottom shape of the boat - you might be able to compensate a little by shifting all the weight to one side - when the boat gets pushed sideways it will try to walk the daggerboard to the windward side of the boat - maybe if you help it a little it might be more responsive to the first puff of wind. It's a common practice dinghy pilots use in light air.

I can't imagine how a different cross section on the board would help any if the boat is not moving.

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by sailboatmike » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:44 pm

A wider centerboard MAY add slightly more lateral resistance, as we all know to push something wider through the water takes more force, HOWEVER, I think the increase in lateral resistance would be so marginal that you would have to seriously think not only twice but 3 or 4 times to decide if its worth spending well over $1000 on achieving.

If you want to use the performance rudders and centerboard to make your sailing better because they give more lift when moving through the water (the word "moving" is important here) then go for it, I dont think the performance foils will do anything for you unless you are actually making way,

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by BOAT » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:00 pm

Yes - a wider board would reduce sideways movement but you would need to also shorten the board to accommodate the extra width or the boat won't turn. It's sort of a catch 22 - the long keel tracks straight and true but does not turn for crap. When your in irons with a long keel (or as you say WIDE) it makes it harder to turn the boat.
Image
If the centerboard is really long and sticks out straight down like the previous post then you might get a little action when the wind pushed the boat to the side if you can get the tip of the board into play.

I wonder if wing tips would create enough drag to stop a daggerboard from pulling through the water sideways?

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Re: Ida Sailor performance for 26X

Post by sailboatmike » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:39 pm

Funny you should say that Boat, i have been thinking for a long time about wings on the end of the keel and or rudders, as we know the last 1/4 of a wind gives a very small amount of lift as the higher pressure escapes over the end to fill in the low pressure, hence most aircraft these days have tips to stop the leeching of pressure, and the Airbus 380 would need a substantially longer wing span without the winglets stopping this.

Not only this but it helps reduce the vortex effect which causes extra drag at the end of the foil.

not sure exactly how it would work in a real life situation, easier on a M with a daggerboard, on the X it would need too not only be able to lift the wings up so they would fit in the casing but they would also need to pivot to keep them at the optimum angle to the water depending on how far up or down your keel is

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