Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

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12Rweenzz
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Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by 12Rweenzz » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:51 am

This is baffling me! Last spring I got all new rigging for my Mac 26x, had it rigged and only had the chance to use it a few times over last summer... and everything seemed to be working well. I raised the mast just a few weeks ago, after being stored and couldn't get the mast to get to fully upright and my furller seemed to be to long as I would attach it to the bow chain plate?? I eventually detached my back stay and pulled the forestay wire out of the furller so I can see whats happening. I used my mast raising system to raise the mast fully upright and so that it's sitting flat on the mast hinge/plate. My side stays seem to be ok (minor adjusting I'm sure), but with the mast fully seated on the mast hinge plate and upright, my forestay wire is now roughly 8' to long and my backstay wire won't reach the chain plate and is roughly 8" to short!? Any Idea on how the heck this could happen... is someone messing with me?! I'm going to try to find the measurements for the backstay and forestay and start there.... but can't imagine how something that once worked doesn't work anymore and is both to long and to short!!!??? Please, someone put me out of my misery!

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opie
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by opie » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:49 pm

check side stays

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Tomfoolery
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Tomfoolery » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:09 pm

12Rweenzz wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:51 am
I used my mast raising system to raise the mast fully upright and so that it's sitting flat on the mast hinge/plate.. My side stays seem to be ok (minor adjusting I'm sure), but with the mast fully seated on the mast hinge plate and upright, my forestay wire is now roughly 8' to long and my backstay wire won't reach the chain plate and is roughly 8" to short!?
The mast may or may not sit flat on the plate, but it’s supposed to be at 94 degrees to the deck, as measured in front of the mast, not square to the deck. It sounds like it’s too far forward. Set it up with the rigging as it was and measure from there. Set the angle with the forestay, then tension the shrouds as required to put the bend in the mast and preload the upper side stays.

The back stay has no function in this initial tune, though it can be helpful in holding the mast angle while fiddling with the side stay lengths initially. It should be slack when the tune is correct, and just snugged afterward. Further tensioning the back stay will put bend in the mast, though the original rig did not allow for that (racers do that mostly).
Tom
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Jimmyt
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Jimmyt » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:59 pm

What shrouds and stays were disconnected when it was stored? I don't know that 8" of forestay length change is possible using adjustments only - especially if you didn't actually adjust it.

Go slowly and methodically through each stay and shroud connection and make sure everything is in the right place (or the same place the riggers had it in last year :| ) before you start changing things. Been there, screwed that up...

If something isn't screwed up, then you'll have to re-tune as Tomfoolery posted.
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12Rweenzz
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by 12Rweenzz » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:48 pm

Thank you all for your responses... I can now tell you a little more! I've moved my sidestays a notch up to get a lil slack out of them, thought that was preventing the mast from sitting on the deck plate properly, I'll better tune these again when i figure this out. The deck plate is what started my tail chasing... with the rigging as is, the mast would not sit fully onto the deck plate, leaving about 1/8 to 3/16 gap between deck hinge plate and mast base. With the mast not fully seated in mast hinge, the mast would move and wobble. This is not how I ever remembered it being. When it's fully seated, the mast is very stable and wont wobble at all. This wobbling would not do well under sail and seems dangerous!

I've measured the angle when the mast is fully seated at 91 degrees, but at this angle, forestay is to long, backstay to short

When I lean back mast off of plate to 94 degrees, I can make both attachments, but have that 3/16 gap between mast plates and the wobble that makes me nervous!

This is new rigging and as well as a new mast and mast plate. The plate on the bottom of the mast has some play in the deck plate, it left and right, not much, but wondered if this should be a tighter fit when the hinge sits flush..... new mast base, original deck step plate?? If this was a more snug fit, maybe the mast wouldn't wobble if it wasn't seated fully onto the deck plate?

In order to get the mast to sit flat on the deck plate, I could mitre cut the mast to get the proper lean back to 94 degrees... Is this possibly a way things are done with new masts and just never got done!? It's a 2001, maybe the deck has flexed a little and 91 degrees is my new normal???? Any ideas???

12Rweenzz
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by 12Rweenzz » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:08 pm

Also... I've pulled the stay out of the furller so I can see the wire and turnbuckles... the turnbuckles are as tight as I can make them...when the mast is leaning back roughly at 94 degrees, the wire is snug, but not taught... I used to really have to pull down to hook it up to bow chain plate... but I guess, when the backstay is attached and pulling mast to rear, this could give me the fight that I'm missing... again, my battle is the mast pivot plate does not seat completely and the mast wobbles a bunch if not fully seated on deck plate.

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Jimmyt
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Jimmyt » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:23 pm

The correct mast angle is paramount. Having said that, I'm not sure that the accuracy of your measurement is within 3 degrees. How are you checking it? It isn't easy to get that unless you've got laser equipment or spend a lot of time leveling up the waterline. If you feel the need to shim the base plate, then do that. I don't think I'd try grinding an angle on the mast, but that's just me.

The M has a rotating (sloppy fit) base plate, so my mast angle could be off several degrees and everything would still look normal on deck.

Get the mast angle right, fore and aft, and get her straight up, port/starboard, then go from there. You can feel around on deck to make sure it isn't soft. Unless you've had a boat since new, there is no telling what has been damaged and repaired either. If the deck checks out ok, I'd glue a shim on it after you get the mast right and know what the shim needs to look like.

Maybe some of the X owners have experienced the gap at the step you're seeing.
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12Rweenzz
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by 12Rweenzz » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:28 pm

I used an angle finder, laid it on the deck and matched as close as I could to match the angle of the mast... then put that on a right angle carpenters square... I think I’m within a degree if not... pretty close!

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Jimmyt
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Jimmyt » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:32 pm

I had never read the X manual before. Didn't know it was a deck referenced angle... Shame on me. :( The M is a bit more obtuse.

However, that makes it more important that you get the angle correct as you are not referencing the actual waterline. I don't know how low the angle can get before the mast is actually raked forward with respect to the waterline, but you don't want that. Maybe one of the hardcore X guys has checked the deck vs waterline to see if they are parallel or not. In any event, you don't want to tune in any Lee helm. :|

What's the story on the new mast and hardware?
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Tomfoolery » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:37 am

Jimmyt wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:32 pm
Maybe one of the hardcore X guys has checked the deck vs waterline to see if they are parallel or not.
It’s not, but I don’t remember which way the deck slopes in relation to the water line. I made the mistake early on of leveling the boat water line, then adjusting mast rake using the main halyard with a heavy weight as a plumb bob. Figured out eventually that the 4 degree rake to the deck is not the same as 4 degree rake to the waterline. :|

Oh, and I use less than 4 degrees rake to the deck, as I don’t like the mast raked that far back. Too much weather helm for my taste.
Tom
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Tomfoolery » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:53 am

12Rweenzz wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:08 pm
...when the mast is leaning back roughly at 94 degrees, the wire is snug, but not taught... I used to really have to pull down to hook it up to bow chain plate... but I guess, when the backstay is attached and pulling mast to rear, this could give me the fight that I'm missing...
With the rigging correctly tuned, you should have to fight to get the forestay pin through without the back stay attached.. See my post above (somewhere). Your wobbly (pumping?) mast may be due to the rig being too loose to start with.

I use a 5-part MRS system with large ball bearing blocks, and I have to crank the crap out of it to make the forestay. After slacking the MRS, I attach the back stay.
Tom
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12Rweenzz
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by 12Rweenzz » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:40 am

This is from the Mac 26x rigging manual

Image

By using this way, measuring off the deck... I get the mast at 94 degrees, my forestay is still to long... but I’ll be able to reach my back stay.. I’m waiting to call blue water yachts on Monday to see if I can get the measurements of both stays to ensure I have the proper lengths..

The whole thing is just weird

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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by 12Rweenzz » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:08 am

Ok... I've tuned the boat completely.., pretty sure I'm on target with 94 degrees. Maybe I've never realized this before, but the only issue is that there is that gap of 3/16 on the mast hinge still. Always thought this fully seated, but maybe I was wrong. Guess it would be good to know if other Mac 26x has this visible gap??? The mast with all stays snug does not wobble at all and is very secure.... just hung up on this gap on the mast hinge! I read somewhere in the forum that the Mac 26x from the factory comes at 86 degrees, which would make sense with the gap I'm seeing.

Appreciate all your feedback!

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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Jimmyt » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:21 pm

Tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:37 am
Jimmyt wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:32 pm
Maybe one of the hardcore X guys has checked the deck vs waterline to see if they are parallel or not.
It’s not, but I don’t remember which way the deck slopes in relation to the water line. I made the mistake early on of leveling the boat water line, then adjusting mast rake using the main halyard with a heavy weight as a plumb bob. Figured out eventually that the 4 degree rake to the deck is not the same as 4 degree rake to the waterline. :|

Oh, and I use less than 4 degrees rake to the deck, as I don’t like the mast raked that far back. Too much weather helm for my taste.
I was afraid that the deck and waterline were not parallel. I'm pretty sure mine aren't, but the M doesn't reference the deck to mast angle. I also remembered you saying you had taken some of the angle out - but couldn't remember how much.

Sounds like he has gotten most of it dialed in now.
Jimmyt
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Jimmyt
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Re: Forestay to long, back stay to short!!!

Post by Jimmyt » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:25 pm

12Rweenzz wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:08 am
I read somewhere in the forum that the Mac 26x from the factory comes at 86 degrees, which would make sense with the gap I'm seeing.
If you ever see that info again, please post it. I could believe the temperature in the factory was 86 degrees maybe; but not the mast rake. :|

Glad you've got it squared away!
Jimmyt
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2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River

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