Inqism-05: The Throne Room

A forum for discussing boat or trailer repairs or modifications that you have made or are considering.
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Jimmyt »

40-60 psi should work fine. Flowrate of pump should be higher than your largest fixture flow. If your fixture can outrun the pump, it will result in poor performance- as you noted.

Note that you need to look at the pump performance info carefully. Make sure that your flowrate is at the approximate pressure of your system design - NOT AT FREE-FLOW conditions.

I bought the cheap positive displacement pump that sounds like a woodpecker on crack is attacking the bilge... It should be fine for my use, but won't meet your night use criteria... :wink:
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Inquisitor
Captain
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:24 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: North Carolina Mountains

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Inquisitor »

Jimmyt wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:49 pm 40-60 psi should work fine. Flowrate of pump should be higher than your largest fixture flow. If your fixture can outrun the pump, it will result in poor performance- as you noted.

Note that you need to look at the pump performance info carefully. Make sure that your flowrate is at the approximate pressure of your system design - NOT AT FREE-FLOW conditions.

I bought the cheap positive displacement pump that sounds like a woodpecker on crack is attacking the bilge... It should be fine for my use, but won't meet your night use criteria... :wink:
Thanks JimmyT... good information and humor too. Can't beat that. I've ordered a 50 psi, 2.9 gal/min unit. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002P33KVQ

Can't find a flow rate on the sprayer and have a question out to them. Here's hoping it's not worse than this 2.9 gal/min.
Odysseus, expert on the Siren's call
User avatar
Inquisitor
Captain
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:24 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: North Carolina Mountains

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Inquisitor »

Progress is slow... table saw is in a HF garage tent. I make a few cuts and come back in the house to thaw out. :D

Here is my first time attempt at bending wood. The 2x4 based jig is set with a 105° so that if there is any spring back, I'll still have the 90° I need. Turns out I didn't need it. As accurately as I can tell, I didn't get any measurable spring back. Uses some 3D printed curves (Orange piece in photo) to give a nice radius'd curve of 5 inches. The first part out of it is the lower wall that will be glassed into the floor. It includes the track for the bi-fold door and drain holes in the track. Although the door will be designed to deflect water away from the track, I'd rather have the drain holes and not need them, than need them and not have them.

Jig with part curing
Image

Finished part
Image

The second part finishing up is the forward wall of the head. I've kind of over engineered it. Instead of using the simple 1/2" plywood of the boat's typical construction, I wanted to experiment with some sound deadening. It will be built up like a stud wall. The outer plywood panels are 0.2" thick plywood as described in viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28122. The Peel n' Seal on the inside of the panel is a Lowe's product I found described as a DIY sound deadening material from a car audio forum. I'm only placing this on the outer panel of the Head. In the gap, I'll be placing some oversized closed-cell foam to press on the inner wall to keep it from resonating.

Faux Teak exterior panel
Image

Stud construction
Image
Odysseus, expert on the Siren's call
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Jimmyt »

That is some beautiful work! Love the curve! I think you've been sandbagging... :wink:

Can't wait to see more!
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Inquisitor
Captain
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:24 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: North Carolina Mountains

Re: Inqism-05: Water Pressure Test with Hot/Cold Mixer

Post by Inquisitor »

Got the new pump in. It is a little noisier than the Whisper King and the motor is far smaller, but is 50 psi and 2.8 gal/min. Had to rig up the hot water test even if snow is on the ground... Had to know!

It is a success! I don't have instruments to measure pressure and flow rate, so I did it the back-yard way... just shoot it out and see how far it travels...

Maximum Output Test
  1. Cold line dropped in bucket at same level as pump.
  2. No strainer on input side
  3. Spray head connected directly to the output of the pump.
  4. Spray head raised to 5 feet, shooting horizontal stream hit the ground about 5' away.
Mixed Water Output Test
  1. Cold line dropped in bucket at same level as pump, run to mixer.
  2. Hot water in Igloo as hot as it comes out of the house, run to mixer.
  3. No strainer on either input.
  4. Mixer to input of pump.
  5. Spray head connected directly to the output of the pump.
  6. Spray head raised to 5 feet, shooting horizontal stream hit the ground about 3' away.
  7. The mixer works as advertised, from 20C to 50C... temperature of mixed water went from lukewarm to hotter than I'd ever take a shower. It wasn't 50C, but it was as hot as the supply.
Although a sizable flow drop, it doesn't really have to shoot that far in a shower that is less than 3' x 4'. Once installed in the boat, it will have the following plus and minuses that will either enhance or retard the flow:
  • (-) A longer run to the cold water tank.
  • (+) A shorter run to the hot water tank.
  • (+) Cold water tank should be about 12" above the pump. I'm leaning toward the 30 gallon Plastimo bag in the V-berth. Still debating with myself.
  • (+) Hot water tank should be about 24" above the pump.
  • (-) Both supplies will have strainers.
  • (+) The Lithium house battery will supply a higher nominal voltage with about zero chance of current causing a voltage drop.
Image


Image
Odysseus, expert on the Siren's call
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Jimmyt »

Excellent! Looks like the plan is coming together!
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Russ
Admiral
Posts: 7543
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:01 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Bozeman, Montana "Luna Azul" 2008 M 70hp Suzi

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Russ »

Wait a minute......that doesn't look like snow on the ground. :)
--Russ
User avatar
Inquisitor
Captain
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:24 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: North Carolina Mountains

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Inquisitor »

Russ wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:53 am Wait a minute......that doesn't look like snow on the ground. :)
:D Only in the shade. 8)
Odysseus, expert on the Siren's call
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Jimmyt »

A couple of friendly suggestions:

Mock up your component elevations using your test rig. Cold tank low, hot tank high, mix valve high, pump low... Also, start with the system tubing dry to get a feel for priming. Hopefully, it won't make a difference. But, pulling the cold water line from the bladder up to waist height, and half a boat distance, will be a bit different than your test setup. Hot side should be ok. To prime the cold side, the mix valve will have to close to the hot side completely.

Since there are no check valves, the mixing valve may allow hot water to back-prime the cold line. Not ideal, but better than having to manually prime it.

Otherwise, you'll have to figure out a way to prime it if the bladder should run dry, or you need to service a part.

Reset your bladder precharge to match your new pump. Bladder charge should be about 3 psi below pump cut-in pressure (pump start). Assuming it's a 10 psi switch, somewhere around 37-40psi.
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Jimmyt »

And, as I mull, it will be a good idea to verify that the hot water tank won't drain into the cold tank when the system is not in use... Unless the mixing valve is internally checked, this may be an issue.

Mocking it up will show you, though.
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Inquisitor
Captain
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:24 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: North Carolina Mountains

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Inquisitor »

Jimmyt wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:41 am A couple of friendly suggestions:

Mock up your component elevations using your test rig. Cold tank low, hot tank high, mix valve high, pump low... Also, start with the system tubing dry to get a feel for priming. Hopefully, it won't make a difference. But, pulling the cold water line from the bladder up to waist height, and half a boat distance, will be a bit different than your test setup. Hot side should be ok. To prime the cold side, the mix valve will have to close to the hot side completely.

Since there are no check valves, the mixing valve may allow hot water to back-prime the cold line. Not ideal, but better than having to manually prime it.

Otherwise, you'll have to figure out a way to prime it if the bladder should run dry, or you need to service a part.

Reset your bladder precharge to match your new pump. Bladder charge should be about 3 psi below pump cut-in pressure (pump start). Assuming it's a 10 psi switch, somewhere around 37-40psi.
I appreciate the suggestions. I wasn't sure what a good strategy was for setting the pre-charge on the accumulator.

I'm stepping back on this idea... the mixing valve was novel, but I'm not sure its worth the PITA.
  • It definitely lowers the pressure and the things you point out are bound to have an affect.
  • I'll need another cosmetic shut-off valve for the hot side. When empty it'll suck air into the system.
  • When I want it to keep heating (passive solar) but need cold water.
  • It would also mean that the filtered drinking water has to be on the pressured (mixed) side and I don't want that either.
  • The Mixer itself is a PITA to mount. Wall can't be thicker than 1/4 inch and there are no independent mount points.

... so I'm stepping back.
I think a first cut is to simply do a cold-only system. Once the admiral (and I) gets over having a blessed shower (even cold), I'll re-address the issue. My current thought (no real think through) is to simply add a second pump and use the standard mixing on the faucets. Having two 2.9 gal/min pumps should make the shower flow just fine!
Odysseus, expert on the Siren's call
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Jimmyt »

You could heat the bladder to shower temp and have one system with Luke-warm water. You need to watch the storage temp as legionella and other fun stuff like a range of warm temps.

You could buy, build, or 3-d print a cover for the mixing valve and anything else that won't fit in the wall. I agree that the mixing valve is bringing some additional challenges vs a simple hot valve/cold valve setup.

A strategic check valve or two, a shutoff or two, or two pumps (one hot, one cold) would Probably cure whatever configuration challenges that might crop up.

Lots of different ways to do it. Start with what you want it to do, then design the configuration to do it.

Never give up, never surrender (in the off chance you're a Galaxy Quest fan) :wink:

But, I get it. Sometimes it's better to eat the elephant using small bites... 8)
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Inquisitor
Captain
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:24 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: North Carolina Mountains

The no-picture update

Post by Inquisitor »

I am making progress on this project. I have installed the forward wall of the head and have cut the aft wall. At the moment, I am running conduit for both electrical and plumbing in case I need to add wiring or replace hoses. I'm shying away from showing pictures of the cut out areas. Way too much carnage and need to keep this forum G-rated. It is getting warmer here and I think I'll be able to do some fiber glassing soon.
Odysseus, expert on the Siren's call
User avatar
Inquisitor
Captain
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:24 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: North Carolina Mountains

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by Inquisitor »

I was a little embarrassed about the mess of my project until Kevin showed us Restless viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28186. Maybe... someone had a bigger mess. :D

Here's the Workshop.
Image

Here is the volume of the new Head. I've been looking at a lot of YouTube videos of Captain Q https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5mSED ... zurVKNOY2A at some very nice, older sailboats. I think my head is as big as most of the heads in these 40 foot boats. :? I can sit cross-legged inside the head with the AirHead toilet. I'd say... it's almost a two person shower room. :)
Image

Here's a shot from within the head looking aft.
Image

... and the 3D printed Corner Forms fresh off the printer.
Image
Odysseus, expert on the Siren's call
User avatar
kmclemore
Site Admin
Posts: 6037
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:24 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Ambler, PA -- MACX2018A898 w/ Tohatsu 50D -- 78 BW Harpoon 4.6 -- 2018 Tahoe 550TF w/ 150 Merc

Re: Inqism-05: The Throne Room

Post by kmclemore »

Inquisitor wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:28 am I was a little embarrassed about the mess of my project until Kevin showed us Restless viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28186. Maybe... someone had a bigger mess. :D
Always happy to be of service.
Post Reply