Would this a Mac survive too?

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kurz
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Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by kurz » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:09 am

wach here, ca. 3min
http://vimeo.com/87355387

Would be the waterballast work good enough?

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Russ
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by Russ » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:49 am

I would not want to be in any boat in that.

The Mac's ballast would work and right the boat.

What were those fools doing on the foredeck? Strangely, they weren't the people thrown from the boat.
If only the rest were tethered, they might not have been tossed over.

I would have been very nervous with the prop of that runabout in those waves. Looks like everyone was okay.

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mastreb
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by mastreb » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:56 am

That boat appeared to rotate beyond the point of vanishing stability for a Mac, which is about 110 degrees, and so I would presume that in that situation, a Mac may turtle and could roll completely around. The ballast would eventually right the boat unless the rig snagged bottom, which is a possibility in that situation. I also doubt that the mast and rigging would have survived that roll without bending. When the relatively thin spreaders on a Mac bend, the entire rig loses tension and becomes loose and dangerous, putting massive pressure on the mast foot which can easily bend, resulting in a complete loss of rig in a situation like that.

However, that situation would never have happened to a Mac, even one that was being piloted by a relatively inexperienced captain. That has to be the worst piloting of a boat I've ever seen. The captain should have remained at sea away from the harbor entrance and not attempted to enter given the capabilities of the boat that he had. Also it's unfathomable that he had passengers topside in that situation. Everyone but the helmsman should have been in the cabin below decks adding to stability and staying safe, rather than topside adding to instability and being swept overboard. That was just a ridiculous error in judgement.

Macs have large enough engines not to get into that situation at all. Even in waves that size, the considerably more powerful engines on a Mac can maintain much better control of your position and keep away from shoals and quay walls, staying to the safer leeward side of those waves and that quay wall. I've been in waves that size (although not breaking against the quay walls like that because I'm not stupid) with my boat and it's nowhere near as dangerous when you're not simply being thrown about by them but can keep position inside wave troughs and position your boat into the waves correctly. You do have to read the waves, the current, and the wind and position yourself correctly before you enter a restricted channel so that you come in with the most margin possible, not right up against the wall where you have no options. When I came into Mission Bay channel under similar sea state, I spent about 30 minutes watching other boats coming and going and positioning my boat for the run in to be sure I had the most leeway possible. Just heading in thoughtlessly will leave you broken up on the rocks.

Also, being able to pull the boards up on a Mac can keep the boat upright as waves pass underneath, helping to prevent the boat from rolling, unlike a fixed keel which will catch the wave and roll.

I can't believe that captain left people in the water and ran for shelter either--another situation that wouldn't have happened with a motor powerful enough to keep position in those waves.
Last edited by mastreb on Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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fishstalker7
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by fishstalker7 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:04 am

Who puts a mast on their surf board?!?! :D

Though I don't own a 26m yet, I have to wonder if it wouldn't get rolled and demasted in that scenario. I think the video said it took 300lbs to hold the mast perpendicular to the water which would translate to 300lbs of righting capability?

That boat in the video getting tossed like a surfboard weighs 15-25k lbs (35'-45' boat?). It's keel is likely 5-10k alone with the weight distributed to the outer most edge when the proper hull is sideways in the water. I don't know the physics calculations to use, but I have to believe it takes more than 300 lbs to hold that mast perpendicular to the water line?!?

I think the 26m would right itself after losing its mast/ripping the daggerboard out, then surf sideways skidding across the top of the water with some serious rolling involved depending on the angles.

Waves like that have tons of force and power.

Just a surfers' .02! :wink:

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mastreb
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by mastreb » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:18 am

Having a lot of experience with bent spreaders (three) and bent masts (two) and having been underway with a damaged rig, I've decided that while having spreaders that bend is cheaper than fixing a bent mast, a bent mast is _much_ safer in any kind of conditions. for that reason, I'm upgrading my spreaders to carbon fiber so that the mast bends before they do.

When the spreaders bend--even just one and even just slightly--the entire rig loses tension completely. Yes, spreaders are only $22, and if you're going to break something that is the cheapest part to break. However, for safety, a bent mast with straight spreaders is MUCH safer, because the rig will remain under reduced but still present tension. That's actually what you want for safety, especially if you're in any kind of sea-state or wind.

Being underway with a rig that has lost tension is dangerous. It was scary just coming into the dock 1000 feet away from where my accident happened as the mast swung precariously from side to side. The admiral and I dismasted the boat immediately before I would even dare to pull it out of the water onto the trailer.

At sea, there would be no safe way to cut the rig loose, and without cutting it loose, it would be an extreme danger to anyone topside and to the helmsman as it would eventually fall when the forestay pin or shackle flogs to failure.

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Russ
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by Russ » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:23 am

mastreb wrote:Everyone but the helmsman should have been in the cabin below decks adding to stability and staying safe, rather than topside adding to instability and being swept overboard. That was just a ridiculous error in judgement.

Macs have large enough engines not to get into that situation at all. Even in waves that size, the considerably more powerful engines on a Mac can maintain much better control of your position and keep away from shoals and quay walls

I can't believe that captain left people in the water and ran for shelter either--another situation that wouldn't have happened with a motor powerful enough to keep position in those waves.
+1

Some serious stupidity in that video.

The Mac ballast would always right the boat. Rigging may take a hit, but the boat would come back up.

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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by Three Gypsies » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:36 am

I am sure that boat had ballast equal to or more than a Mac's water ballast . It did what it was suppose to do and right itself , just like a Mac .
I agree our more powerful engines would have saved the day and the passengers .

On our cruises there were many times I thanked the Lord for that Honda 50 and powered ourselves out of harm's way . :macx:

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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by dlandersson » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:48 pm

I think a Mac 26S/X would be ok - more to the point, with a 50HP outboard, they wouldn't have the same problem. 8)

There are a LOT of potential "lessons learned" in that video. If I had been swept overboard, I would be a unhappy/sacred MF'er. :o
kurz wrote:wach here, ca. 3min
http://vimeo.com/87355387

Would be the waterballast work good enough?

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March
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by March » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:26 pm

Three Gypsies » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:36 pm wrote

I am sure that boat had ballast equal to or more than a Mac's water ballast . It did what it was suppose to do and right itself , just like a Mac .
I agree our more powerful engines would have saved the day and the passengers .
The boat in question seems to have plenty of power, quite possibly more than 50 HP. It's an inboard and you can't see it, but the power is there all right. Look at how easily it comes about around 2:00 minutes. If it hadn't had so much power, the owners wouldn't haver been so confident that they could easily beat the surf.

If it DIDN'T have such a powerful engine, I doubt they would have ventured to find "a window of opportunity" to sneak in.

Aside from all good points made above, sheer bad luck is also part of the picture; the two mega-waves caught the boat sideways and toppled her. The timing was just woefully wrong.

That's the problem with "calculated risks"--they are perfectly manageable until they happen to no longer be

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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by Ixneigh » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:07 pm

Mac would have been dismasted, but it may have been able to beat the wave in.
that guy is familiar with the locale, and just made a mistake judging the waves. Notice how he hangs around trying to time it. He probably goes in and out often. A mac would have come in on a plane, between swells.
I think is was just poor luck with those two waves coming in. He left the people because there was no way to pick them up and help was at hand.
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by SENCMac26x » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:50 pm

More than power, I think the Macs would have been able to speed far enough ahead to avoid that last wave....

Of course this Mac driver would probably be the one taking the video....I'm not one to be overly brave in rough weather.

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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by seahouse » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:38 pm

Mmmm. I can smell jacklines installed on that boat now! :D

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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by JotaErre » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:38 am

I have seen this video atleast seven times, in different sailing fórums.

The port is Zumaia, in the Basque Country (North of Spain). It has a difficult entry and a very large sandbar, so it is very difficult to get in with rough sea, Even professional fishermen prefer other ports when the sea is rough.

There is a much better port (Guetaria) less tan three nautical miles from Zumaia, and, if the skipper had been wiser, he should have gone there...

If I had been the skipper, I would have called the port master first, and asked if it was safe to get in...

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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by NiceAft » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:54 am

if the skipper had been wiser, he should have gone...
The difference between a smart person and a wise person is that a smart person knows how to get out of situations which a wise person would not have gotten into in the first place.

Ray

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seahouse
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Re: Would this a Mac survive too?

Post by seahouse » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:01 pm

NiceAft wrote:
if the skipper had been wiser, he should have gone...
The difference between a smart person and a wise person is that a smart person knows how to get out of situations which a wise person would not have gotten into in the first place.

Ray

Wiseguy!

:D

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