Tacking in high winds

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BOAT
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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:44 pm

France 16 has more than just a reef in - he is on a storm jib - he is not even using his genoa - it's fully furled. He is in a blow - very heavy wind and he is still near knock down -

Alex Thompson (Hugo Boss) reefed for the Keel walk, but on the mast walk the sail goes all the way to the top (no reef) because he needed to heel over further for the mast walk than he did for the keel walk. They also had to remove one of the rudders for the keel walk so Thompson would not get ripped in half when he fell off the keel.

None of the other boats are reefed, and in fact Wild Oats is doing exactly what mike said they were doing that resulted in their crash - he is sailing with NO reef, PLUS a Genoa, AND ANOTHER HEADSAIL! IN A BLOW! There are a lot of pilots that would rather hang people off the side than reef - Wild Oats skipper is one of them - that's why he wins so many races.

I can tell you that in a lot of these instances I WOULD REEF! ESPECIALLY in the situation Wild Oats is in. But none of the boats that are racing have a reef in except number 16.

The single handed IMOCA boats do indeed reef all the time - and for the very reasons cited: SAFETY - when your all alone you do not want to break the boat.

I am not on any "side" - as far as debating anything I can't really debate an X boat driver on this because it's not the same boat as the M boat - the skipper needs to make his own choice - all I am saying is that I do not get all panicked about SAILING on my "side" - it's just not one of those things we need to be overly concerned about, (at least on the M boat it's just not a big deal). Don't risk your life on deck trying to reef the main just because the wind goes to 12 knots or your heel angle is over 40 degrees - it's a lot safer to just ride out a gust of wind at 45 degrees than it is to risk your life trying to reef the main on a steep deck. Just relax and let it pass - if it's a big problem then furl in the Genoa first. The M boat sails REALLY GOOD on just the main alone - Roger said so many times and it's true.

The last picture believe it or not is the boat in the most danger - and it's also the boat sailing the flattest on the water. The last picture is the HUGO BOSS 99 going downwind on a spinnaker at blazing speed in heavy wind - he has the daggerboards up and the hull way further out of the water than what it is on a reach or a run - you can tell because the boat is DRY - all the boats on their sides are WET (they are IN the water like a submarine) The reason the DRY boat going downwind on a spinnaker is SO dangerous is because if the wind suddenly shifted to the beam tha boat would capsize in an instant if the helmsman does not turn the boat back down the wind - the kite will pull the boat right over if he does not turn immediately with the sail - and that's why the skipper in that picture is on the helm with his eyes on his kite.

If I really was a wild man kites would not scare me so much - but I have seen them pull boats right over on their sides - they scare me. I think the stock MAC kite is probably small enough to protect your boat but if the wind is blowing hard I myself would not risk one. One time I saw a kite actually drag a boat through the water on it's side in a bad blow - the crew was desperately trying to cut the kite loose as they were being dragged.

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Neo
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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Neo » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:01 pm

Image
Like is this 75 Degrees??? :?


Image
I just gotta try this on the Mac :D .... Need to get one them hinges on the dagger board :P

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:25 pm

Neo wrote: Like is this 75 Degrees??? :?
Probably almost there. Remember - the AVS for the MAC M boat is well OVER 90 degrees and she is a dry boat even at that angle and we have proof:

Image

Most Keel boats have an 'Area of Positive stability' (AVS) over 130 degrees and there is a rating for the GZ curve that ranks it's ability for Righting Moment - keels boats are very stable even PAST 90 DEGREES! IF (a very BIG if!) IF - you can keep the water out of the boat!! It's not the heel that kills you, but the WATER! That's why 50 degrees on a Catalina 38 is a lot more dangerous than 50 degrees on a MAC 26 - the CAT will start taking on water at that angle - the MAC wont. But a CAT was never ever designed to sail at 50 degrees and should not BE sailed at 50 degrees and it's almost imosible to heel a CAT 38 over to 50 degrees. With a MAC 26 M it's REAL EASY.

Image


Even the MAC26M has a Angle of Vanishing Stability that is greater than 100 degrees but it's righting moment is not quite as good as a keel boat because of the high CG.

I just gotta try this on the Mac :D .... Need to get one them hinges on the dagger board :P
Okay, just don't go crazy:

Image

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Baha » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:54 am

That Blue Hulled :macm: is no way fast enough to outrun the wave....now, if that was a White hull..... 8)

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Jimmyt » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:00 am

If I ever look over my shoulder and see a wave like that coming, I'm pretty sure my white hull will quickly fill with a brown substance...

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Baha » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:02 am

Still look better than Brown and Blue.... :P

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by vizwhiz » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:33 am

BOAT wrote:The reason the DRY boat going downwind on a spinnaker is SO dangerous is because if the wind suddenly shifted to the beam tha boat would capsize in an instant if the helmsman does not turn the boat back down the wind - the kite will pull the boat right over if he does not turn immediately with the sail - and that's why the skipper in that picture is on the helm with his eyes on his kite.

If I really was a wild man kites would not scare me so much - but I have seen them pull boats right over on their sides - they scare me. I think the stock MAC kite is probably small enough to protect your boat but if the wind is blowing hard I myself would not risk one. One time I saw a kite actually drag a boat through the water on it's side in a bad blow - the crew was desperately trying to cut the kite loose as they were being dragged.
Highlander and Beene have a video out there of practicing with the spinnaker on Pegasus, and in one of the videos you can see how it does just what you described above. Beene is trying to control it, and the wind shifts, or the boat turns, and the sail pulls the boat right over on its side... Pretty cool video to watch. Highlander...any chance you can post that one?

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:55 am

I have had more than one PM with Beene asking for advice on kite rigging the stock Spinnaker for the MAC 26M boat since I have no experience flying one on the M. He has had the most experience flying one in high winds. He is a man of few words but from what I can gather the stock kite is designed with the right taper at the top to spill it's winds before it pulls the boat over on it's side. You do have a clew and a tack on a kite - but letting out either one does not really help unless you have really really long lines on them - most of the skippers I watch that fly kites in high wind release the HALYARD to stop a possible capsize - not the sheets, and here is why:

Image

As the boat heels over further and further the air will escape over the top of the sail if you do nothing IF the sail is properly cut for your boat. As you can see in the picture the last thing you want to do is let out the clew and the tack when heeled over. If you let out the clew and tack when the mast is in the position in the third picture all your doing is re-powering the sail back to the configurations it was in the first picture!
WHAM! The kite suddenly takes on MORE power! And a lot of skippers think it's a stronger gust of wind that is knocking them further down but in reality the wind has not changed at all!
You think your letting out sail but in reality your re-balancing the kite to catch more air and now your in REAL trouble because with all that line out the kite turns into a BAG. It's a very common error.

I see lots of these videos of guys dragging over and keep letting out the bottom of the kite and just get dragged over even further!

The smart money is on the skipper that releases the TOP of the kite when things go crazy - but it still requires a really long halyard or you will be climbing the mast to reset your spin halyard.

Most of these guys that you see dragging across the water on their sides with a kite in high wind are doing so because they have knots in the ends of their lines to prevent them for coming out of the pulleys and blocks and eyes - real normal practice for most of us with our mainsheet and genoasheets - but with a spinnaker you don't do that - you never knot the end of the lines when flying a kite - if the kite goes crazy you want to LET IT GO completely.

Otherwise if the kite gets sideways and starts dragging you over the ocean on your side you will look like an idiot flopping on the deck with a knife trying to cut your lines to get rid of a crazy kite.

Kites are tricky - they deserve a lot of respect.

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Highlander » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:50 pm

here u go enjoy
Image

Remember most of the time we do these stunts there is three boats out together so as we have help read ally avail. if needed , but not written in stone unfortunately :?

J
8)

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Neo » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:11 pm

Hi Highlander, Did you mean to post up a video? ... That's just a picture above. :|

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Jimmyt » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:36 pm

Tap the pic and it will take you to photobucket where you can watch the video.

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:23 pm

These guys are in the San Fran BAY! YES A BAY - I myself seldom get the luxury to sail in protected waters but here even in a protected bay things get very goofy - now, if these guys were NOT in the bay in those kinds of winds they would also be dealing with 40 foot seas to go along with their 40 MPH winds.

Needless to say,
Here is what a kite can do to a big keel boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYsY-4vKsJE

See how feeble your rudder is against the power of the spinnaker! Resistance is futile!!

Image

Here is another one, two boats - a black boat and a white boat - both boats get into the same broaching danger under a kite - the skipper in the black boat does the right thing to avoid a broach, he releases the halyard (the TOP of the kite) and his boat regains - the skipper in the white boat releases the tack and clew (the FOOT of the kite) - his boat gets pulled over even worse - this is all happening together so it's not the wind - same wind - different outcomes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG3jA6Fswak

enjoy.

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Neo » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:55 am

Jimmyt wrote:Tap the pic and it will take you to photobucket where you can watch the video.
Thanks.... Wouldn't work in Chrome for some reason :o

BOAT, what does The BORG (Star Trek) have to do with the know downs?

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Ixneigh » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:13 am

Anyone see the video out today of the boat hitting the Redondo beach pier?
Ix

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Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by cmagnus4 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:01 am


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