Mast Raising Alterations 26M

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BOAT
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by BOAT »

Jimmyt wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:13 pm Everyone's looking for a better mouse trap (mast trap?).
This is ridiculous - on a 22 foot boat????? Really?? Have any of you ever owned a 22 foot boat? I have - the mast does not need any of that crap.
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Jimmyt »

No, never owned a 22 ft boat. Agree, that's a lot of stuff going on. I'm looking for a push button, 15 second mast raising system with self-tending shrouds that never foul or kink. :wink: Until then, I'll enjoy mine.
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Todd »

I have been reading this thread with great interest because I thought my mast raising pole might be broken. It sounds like it behaves like everyone else's. The most concerning mast raising event I had was in a slip. I was by myself and the mast started to swing to port as I was raising it. It was about the 20 degree position and of course when I went to correct it I stepped towards port and the tender Mac leaned into it even more. By the time I got control of the swing it was over the neighbor's boat. Luckily no contact with the boat and that was the last time I will do that in a slip.

I will keep hoping that the Mac Engineering Team here finds a better solution because I doubt I will come up with anything :)
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Tomfoolery »

Todd wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:23 pmI will keep hoping that the Mac Engineering Team here finds a better solution because I doubt I will come up with anything :)
Baby stays to the mast. I raise and lower my mast on the water most of the time.
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Jimmyt »

Yep. It takes all of the fear out of raising the mast on an M. Just undo the "enhancement" they made between the X and M models (put the mast baby stays back on).
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Tomfoolery »

Yup. Doesn’t matter if it has a rotating mast, as the mast can/should be straight ahead when raising anyway, and the baby stays will keep it that way when under load.
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Jimmyt »

Tomfoolery wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 am
Jimmyt wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:17 amI've got some heavier stainless, so I guess I could make new bottom brackets. I'm hoping that stabilizing the gin pole will allow the stock brackets to serve the purpose. I'll continue to overthink this for a bit before doing anything.
Consider adding a filler block of lightweight plastic or wood that fits snugly inside the brackets to stabilize them. A few small holes in the center, along their length, to secure the block and transfer longitudinal shear (up/down in this case) will make those brackets much much stronger. Especially for the :macm: , where the MRS doesn't move, you only need little lugs at the bottom to engage the tabernacle.
Tomfoolery, you recommend plastic or wood to stiffen the lower brackets. Is there a particular reason you didn't consider a stainless gusset (other than my lack of welding prowess)?
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Highlander »

Jimmyt wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:35 pm
Tomfoolery wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 am
Jimmyt wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:17 amI've got some heavier stainless, so I guess I could make new bottom brackets. I'm hoping that stabilizing the gin pole will allow the stock brackets to serve the purpose. I'll continue to overthink this for a bit before doing anything.
Consider adding a filler block of lightweight plastic or wood that fits snugly inside the brackets to stabilize them. A few small holes in the center, along their length, to secure the block and transfer longitudinal shear (up/down in this case) will make those brackets much much stronger. Especially for the :macm: , where the MRS doesn't move, you only need little lugs at the bottom to engage the tabernacle.
Tomfoolery, you recommend plastic or wood to stiffen the lower brackets. Is there a particular reason you didn't consider a stainless gusset (other than my lack of welding prowess)?
Yes I agree stainless steel gussets welded on both sides front & aft sandwinching the gin pole
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Jimmyt »

Todd wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:23 pm I have been reading this thread with great interest because I thought my mast raising pole might be broken. It sounds like it behaves like everyone else's. The most concerning mast raising event I had was in a slip. I was by myself and the mast started to swing to port as I was raising it. It was about the 20 degree position and of course when I went to correct it I stepped towards port and the tender Mac leaned into it even more. By the time I got control of the swing it was over the neighbor's boat. Luckily no contact with the boat and that was the last time I will do that in a slip.

I will keep hoping that the Mac Engineering Team here finds a better solution because I doubt I will come up with anything :)
Did you have your raising stays attached at the stanchions? Yikes! I'm surprised your gin pole brackets didn't collapse.

Bottom line, you've got to keep the mast virtually on the centerline of the boat throughout the raising and lowering processes. Even a small misalignment results in putting all of the load on one of the gin pole brackets (or worse)... The easiest way (my opinion), is using mast baby stays. As Tomfoolery points out, you have to have a connection point, on deck, or stanchions, that perfectly aligns with the mast step pivot hole. This requires you to either add a deck bracket, or add/relocate a stanchion loop. The stock stanchions do not have a loop that will allow mast baby stays to work properly. Using a hard link as BOAT suggests would work fine too, as long as you create the right pivot point for it.

What is the equilibrium position of the gin pole at a very slight mast misalignment?

Image

Now imagine what the lower brackets are doing... :|

So, I added stays to my gin pole as well. I'd rather take that side load with stays than with the brackets. And, as I said before, if I slip or misstep, I might try to grab the gin pole to steady myself. Don't want it going anywhere...
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Todd »

Jimmyt wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:03 am
Todd wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:23 pm

I will keep hoping that the Mac Engineering Team here finds a better solution because I doubt I will come up with anything :)
Did you have your raising stays attached at the stanchions? Yikes! I'm surprised your gin pole brackets didn't collapse.

Bottom line, you've got to keep the mast virtually on the centerline of the boat throughout the raising and lowering processes. Even a small misalignment results in putting all of the load on one of the gin pole brackets (or worse)... The easiest way (my opinion), is using mast baby stays. As Tomfoolery points out, you have to have a connection point, on deck, or stanchions, that perfectly aligns with the mast step pivot hole. This requires you to either add a deck bracket, or add/relocate a stanchion loop. The stock stanchions do not have a loop that will allow mast baby stays to work properly. Using a hard link as BOAT suggests would work fine too, as long as you create the right pivot point for it.

What is the equilibrium position of the gin pole at a very slight mast misalignment?

Image

Now imagine what the lower brackets are doing... :|

So, I added stays to my gin pole as well. I'd rather take that side load with stays than with the brackets. And, as I said before, if I slip or misstep, I might try to grab the gin pole to steady myself. Don't want it going anywhere...
Yes I did have them attached. When it warms up I may do a lift next to my house so I can observe if something is too loose.
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Jimmyt »

Good plan. Please post your results!

Apparently, we are not alone... https://goodoldboat.com/no-fear-mast-stepping/

Note the bridle they suggest for anchoring the mast stays at the mast step pivot line... no welding or drilling maybe?
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by BOAT »

Tomfoolery wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:19 pm Yup. Doesn’t matter if it has a rotating mast, as the mast can/should be straight ahead when raising anyway, and the baby stays will keep it that way when under load.
Yes, really - for the existing MRS on the M this is the most simple and cheapest and easiest enhancement. Just put permanent baby stays on the side of the mast because just like Tom said - you don't want the mast to rotate during set up anyways and you can leave the baby stays on during trailering to keep the mast from rotating on the road.

This also will help keep the mast from jumping the crutch when you hit a speed bump (has happened to me) and makes a good emergency stay to hold the mast during repairs if you pop or break a stay out at sea. Put the baby stays up high enough so there is less excess stay at the bottom of the mast when sailing (when the baby stays are not attached to the deck).

This idea alone will change so much and improve so many things that I think I may even consider it.

I just need Tom to do the geometry to tell me where I need to move the bottom attachment to get it lines up properly with the hinch of the mast base.
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Jimmyt »

Jimmyt wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:05 am Here is my final location. I would check your alignment - not sure how consistently the factory located all of this stuff.

Image
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Jimmyt »

But, I would suggest putting a straight edge across and measuring from the straight edge to the hole, then using those measurements to locate your stay connection points.

Image

But asking Tom is good too 8)
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Re: Mast Raising Alterations 26M

Post by Tomfoolery »

Jimmyt wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:24 pmBut asking Tom is good too 8)
:o :o :o

Asking is good; the responses may not be. :P

Putting the top of those attachment rings exactly in line with the hinge center of the mast would mean the baby stay geometry remains constant throughout the range of motion of the mast.

That also means you'd need enough slack in them that you can do and undo them with the mast in the cradle and full up. On the :macx: , the removable tangs that engage the bottom of the baby stays to the straps on the deck are raised a little, which puts them nearly in line with the hinge. But I have to have enough slack in them so I can disengage them once the mast is up. It only takes a little, but it makes for a bit of wobbly as the mast goes up.

I suppose I could disengage them with the mast a little short of full-up, as the side stays center it and it won't move to give me any additional slack. But I don't mind the bit of wobble as it's not much and it allows me to attach and detach them in either position.

One thing that actually is not so good is that the baby stays are too short, so I have to disengage them to roll the mast forward to the bow rail. If they were mounted a couple of feet higher, I could leave them attached. Not a big deal, but there are so many little things to do when stepping/unstepping that one less thing to do would be useful.

One foot higher would allow two feet of additional mast movement forward before fetching tight. Should be easy enough to measure before the fact, of course, if you're rolling your own and have the option to do whatever you want. :wink:
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