Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

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Tomfoolery
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by Tomfoolery »

DaveC426913 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:51 am. . . he wonders if there's something we can do there that might get the prop engaged while still at idle, thus avoiding the clutch kicking out.
It should be engaging with the engine at idle, in either direction. By a lot, in the case of my remote control at the helm. Are you saying the engine speed comes up before the prop is engaged?
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by Misha »

DaveC426913 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 7:08 am Heard back from shop.

Apparently there's a threaded retainer ring they need to take off before they can get at the lower section. It's seized and it broke their tool.
(I won't know more until I show up to examine it.)

So they can't do anything. I've either got to live with it, or replace the whole lower portion, at about $3500 (unless a salvage comes along).

:(
Wow. Last year I found a bit of water in lower unit of my 2003 BF50 Honda. I asked shop to replace the gasket and they told me by the end the could not because they were unable to take off retainer ring and broke there tool when trying. They offered me replace lower unit for $3500(I do not remember if it included labor or not) and when I rejected invoiced me for $100 for labor time. I had no choice and payed but decided never use this shop again. I am also in Toronto ON so now I am suspecting it was the same shop. I am not sure about forum rules and don't know if it is allowed to name the shop here. If not could we discuss via PM?
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by Tomfoolery »

Misha wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:37 amWow. Last year I found a bit of water in lower unit of my 2003 BF50 Honda. I asked shop to replace the gasket and they told me by the end the could not because they were unable to take off retainer ring and broke there tool when trying.
I believe you actually can replace the seals on the prop shaft without removing that ring, but I don't have the guts to try. It's a one-way trip, as you'd have to drill a hole in the seal and thread in a sheet metal screw so you have something to pull on to get it out, and do the same for the one behind it. If it doesn't work, you have no seals, and you still can't get the big threaded ring out to clean things up more easily.

There are two in there on the same shaft - the inner one faces inboard and keeps the gear oil in the lower unit, while the outer one faces outboard and keeps the sea water out of the lower unit.

I get a little water in the gear oil over the course of a season, even though I keep the prop out of the water always except when actually motoring, but I can live with it, and change it religiously every fall, when prepping for winter. I did put a new seal or seals on the vertical input shaft when I change the impeller, so I'm pretty sure it's not from that.
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DaveC426913
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by DaveC426913 »

Tomfoolery wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:06 pm
DaveC426913 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:51 am. . . he wonders if there's something we can do there that might get the prop engaged while still at idle, thus avoiding the clutch kicking out.
It should be engaging with the engine at idle, in either direction. By a lot, in the case of my remote control at the helm. Are you saying the engine speed comes up before the prop is engaged?
I confess I just don't know anymore. I know I can rotate the shifter about 30 degrees before even coming close to engaging the gars or throttling up. A lot of play.

I think my friend is right that I should have him look it over while it's running. He'll be able to diagnose better than I.

I need to find an 80 gallon trash bin to create the world's smallest lagoon...
MacX 2000 Honda BF50A 'SeaSaw'
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by Starscream »

Misha wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:37 am
DaveC426913 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 7:08 am Heard back from shop.

Apparently there's a threaded retainer ring they need to take off before they can get at the lower section. It's seized and it broke their tool.
(I won't know more until I show up to examine it.)

So they can't do anything. I've either got to live with it, or replace the whole lower portion, at about $3500 (unless a salvage comes along).

:(
Wow. Last year I found a bit of water in lower unit of my 2003 BF50 Honda. I asked shop to replace the gasket and they told me by the end the could not because they were unable to take off retainer ring and broke there tool when trying. They offered me replace lower unit for $3500(I do not remember if it included labor or not) and when I rejected invoiced me for $100 for labor time. I had no choice and payed but decided never use this shop again. I am also in Toronto ON so now I am suspecting it was the same shop. I am not sure about forum rules and don't know if it is allowed to name the shop here. If not could we discuss via PM?
Wow that sounds too similar to be a coincidence. Very likely a scam by the shop. Well, that's what google-reviews are for, I guess, lacking a strong consumer protection office. If you find out it's the same shop, make sure to post it on their reviews.
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by DaveC426913 »

Starscream wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:23 pm
Misha wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:37 am
DaveC426913 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 7:08 am Heard back from shop.

Apparently there's a threaded retainer ring they need to take off before they can get at the lower section. It's seized and it broke their tool.
(I won't know more until I show up to examine it.)

So they can't do anything. I've either got to live with it, or replace the whole lower portion, at about $3500 (unless a salvage comes along).

:(
Wow. Last year I found a bit of water in lower unit of my 2003 BF50 Honda. I asked shop to replace the gasket and they told me by the end the could not because they were unable to take off retainer ring and broke there tool when trying. They offered me replace lower unit for $3500(I do not remember if it included labor or not) and when I rejected invoiced me for $100 for labor time. I had no choice and payed but decided never use this shop again. I am also in Toronto ON so now I am suspecting it was the same shop. I am not sure about forum rules and don't know if it is allowed to name the shop here. If not could we discuss via PM?
Wow that sounds too similar to be a coincidence. Very likely a scam by the shop. Well, that's what google-reviews are for, I guess, lacking a strong consumer protection office. If you find out it's the same shop, make sure to post it on their reviews.
OK, that's weird. My shop at first agreed to have my boat in, but I could never seem to nail down a date. Finally, has been helping me to arrange an independent contractor to fix my boat on-site (because of Covid, he can't take my boat on his lot). So, he suggests I order the part myself and pay for it myself (which will incidentally save me $500), -and then asked for a $150 eTransfer for his troubles.

At first, I thought that was great, since I really appreciated his help, but now I'm thinking ... Hang on - The reason this is all happening is because you have reneged on your agreement to repair my boat...

(I should say, this is a very well known shop, with an excellent reputation, so it would be pretty hard to believe.)
MacX 2000 Honda BF50A 'SeaSaw'
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by Russ »

DaveC426913 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:53 pm-and then asked for a $150 eTransfer for his troubles.

At first, I thought that was great, since I really appreciated his help, but now I'm thinking ... Hang on - The reason this is all happening is because you have reneged on your agreement to repair my boat...

(I should say, this is a very well known shop, with an excellent reputation, so it would be pretty hard to believe.)
eTransfer for his trouble? That right there sounds fishy.

"Well known shop with an excellent reputation" has screwed me in the past. You should PM Misha and see if the same shop. Or just post the name here. You aren't trashing them (yet) so no foul.
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by NiceAft »

You aren't trashing them (yet) so no foul
Slippery slope.

Check with Misha, but that does not mean confirming here that it’s the same shop. Anyone who’s interested can always P.M.
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by DaveC426913 »

Have reached out to Misha.
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Re: Honda BF50 "kicking" in reverse

Post by DaveC426913 »

My friend spent a couple of hours at my BF50's beside. He waved away all my helpful suggestions and started with step 1 - the obvious stuff.

He ignored the gearcase completely and did a full diagnostic on the shifter/throttle cable system.

By the time he was satisfied, my kicking problem was gone.

What appears to have been happening is that the shifter cable had plenty of forward motion but was not going far enough into reverse. So, when I shifted into reverse, it would engage just enough to grind the gears and - with a little more throttle - turn the prop. But when it throttled up at all, it slipped and kicked out of gear.

My friend ran out of reverse cable motion - even at full adjustment - and wanted to know if there was anything we could do at the other end - the remote shifter. Sure enough, there was several more millimeters to work with.

The was all it took. No more kicking out of gear. We revved the engine up - in reverse - higher than I've ever had it.

(When I mentioned this to my Marine Shop, who had tried to fix this before, they said they adjusted it as far as they could and had no cable left. They complimented my friend for being smarter than they are.)

My friend saved me three thousand bucks! (And we won't accept anything more than a bottle of Amarone for his troubles.)

Now: caveat: this was in a bucket. We'll see how it works in real water.


As for Misha: we conferred. It was not the same shop.

I have concluded that my shop wanted to charge for picking up the gearcase and bringing it to me (~50km), but since I longer need it, I expect he won't fight me for the 150 clams.
MacX 2000 Honda BF50A 'SeaSaw'
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