Trailer Tongue Question

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
trdprotruck
First Officer
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:01 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Yorba Linda, CA

Trailer Tongue Question

Post by trdprotruck »

Hi All,

So after the last trip, I noticed that the trailer tongue is starting to sag. I don't have the time to fix this myself, so I contacted a local welder to replace it. He was suggesting to cap off the tongue so that water wouldn't be able to get inside in the future. Does anyone see any issues with this?

Thanks,

Randy
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Jimmyt »

Capping both ends is a great idea IF you can seal it entirely. Otherwise, I wouldn't cap it. I certainly wouldn't cap just the rear end.
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
OverEasy
Admiral
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:16 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: NH & SC

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by OverEasy »

Hi!

I wouldn’t recommend “sealing the rube.
Typically you would “want” to make sure that all potential water can drain away as easily as possible with the least amount of restriction for a boat trailer.

Seldom can welded cap / tube interface be perfectly sealed over time unless there is a means to pressure test it. Even then you are dealing with water vapor which is very thin and the “sealed” area is subjected to thermal cycling will be pulling a vacuum for long periods of time. So any minor flaw will potentially allow moisture in.

Something that does work is to use a barrier coating such as paint or oils to coat the piping interior.
This can be accomplished by a variety of means. (Spray, pulled saturated foam block, etc...)

Hope this helps.

8) 8) 🐩
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 6135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Tomfoolery »

Jimmyt wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:10 pm Capping both ends is a great idea IF you can seal it entirely. Otherwise, I wouldn't cap it. I certainly wouldn't cap just the rear end.
If it’s the original X trailer, the aft end of the tube is sealed by the channel cross member, while the fore end where the coupler is remains completely open.

One solution to the rusting away problem is to simply use a heavier walled tube, like 1/4” or 5/16”. The original is only 3/16” wall, 3 x 3” HSS. I would use a heavier walled tube anyway, just for the added stiffness while towing, though in good condition the original certainly is strong enough. You can also use a 3 x 4” tube with some slight cutting of the bottom flanges of the two side rails, as the coupler only needs the 3” width. The welds would have to be cut out with a torch anyway, so it might actually be easier. And the bottom inch would be open that way and will drain water and make it easier to flush salt water out of it.

And use internal rust preventive treatments as mentioned already.

Both due to rust, and to the highest bending stresses in that pole tongue, the place where it always seems to bend is back where the two side rails tie in. Hit the bottom of the tube with a ball peen hammer and listen to the sound compared to up front somewhere - my bet is that it’s rusting and will have a dull ‘thud’ report rather than a bell-like ‘ring’ in that area. Catigale’s pole tongue actually folded there while on a trip and he had to strap some heavy lumber to the bottom to keep it together long enough to get somewhere (home?).
Tom
Be seeing you . . .
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Jimmyt »

Tomfoolery wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:03 am If it’s the original X trailer, the aft end of the tube is sealed by the channel cross member, while the fore end where the coupler is remains completely open.
Is there a drain hole in the bottom near the rear? Seems like a good way to create a failure if not (thus this thread I guess...).
Jimmyt
P-Cub-Boo
2013 26M, Etec 60, roller Genoa, roller main
Cruising Waters: Mobile Bay, Western Shore, Fowl River
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 6135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Tomfoolery »

Jimmyt wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:47 pm
Tomfoolery wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:03 am If it’s the original X trailer, the aft end of the tube is sealed by the channel cross member, while the fore end where the coupler is remains completely open.
Is there a drain hole in the bottom near the rear? Seems like a good way to create a failure if not (thus this thread I guess...).
Good question. Mine does not have a drain hole, but that doesn’t mean others don’t. :wink:
Tom
Be seeing you . . .
User avatar
Dougiestyle
Engineer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:18 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rockport TX

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Dougiestyle »

Here is what I did to my OEM trailer.
https://macgregorsailors.com/forum/view ... 70#p339070

I also drilled 2 small holes on the back of the tongue for better draining, then I sprayed some LPS 3 for some corrosion protection.

There are a few threads on this site that show what happens when the trailer starts to corrode.
Dougiestyle
1998 26X , Nissan 50D, "Water Buffalo"
trdprotruck
First Officer
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:01 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Yorba Linda, CA

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by trdprotruck »

Thanks everyone for the advice. It is the original trailer and I have a naturally occurring drainage hole in the back of the tube :o . The welder backed out due to liability concerns and his insurance. I am thinking about just doing it myself... I could just replace it with a 3" square tubing at .250 in thick for relatively cheap ~50 bucks. Another option is I could order a 3" galvanized tube at 3/16" thickness for ~160.

What do you think is the better way to go? Thicker tube or go with thinner galvanized? Decisions Decisions....
User avatar
WinSome
Engineer
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:35 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Hamilton Ontario Canada

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by WinSome »

Good topic. I’d be consider the non-glav option based on:
How long has the original lasted? Touch up with some spray tremclad. Take care
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 6135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Tomfoolery »

trdprotruck wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:35 pmWhat do you think is the better way to go? Thicker tube or go with thinner galvanized? Decisions Decisions....
Being that the original lasted at least 20 years, I'd go with the thicker wall 3x3.

Or add it to the underside of the existing, if the existing is still in relatively good condition. Stitch weld it to the original, or use a continuous 'seal' weld.* Notch it around the frame rails, which won't weaken it if it's stitch welded along its whole length.** That takes the least welding/fabricating effort. Remember that the coupler is probably welded to the pole tongue. Mine was, at least, and when I replaced it, I had a heck of a job since I don't have a torch. I bolted the new one. :wink:

You can also u-clamp or weld the second tube with spacers, like in the photos in the link below. Probably the least effort of all, and at minimum doubles the strength, assuming the same wall thickness as the original - more with the 1/4" wall tube. Which is more than strong enough, of course.

*It essentially becomes a composite beam of sorts with the welded connection the neutral axis. Like laying two 2x4's flat on each other (twice as strong in bending), or gluing them together (makes them something approaching 4 times as strong).

**Clamp it well, and alternate sides or it will curl away on the unwelded side and you'll never get it back.
Dougiestyle wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:37 pm Here is what I did to my OEM trailer.
https://macgregorsailors.com/forum/view ... 70#p339070
Tom
Be seeing you . . .
OverEasy
Admiral
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:16 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: NH & SC

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by OverEasy »

From a professional perspective there are several important things to consider before you proceed. This isn’t a put down but thoughtfulness based upon personal and professional experience.

1) Mixing metals or cladding isn’t generally an accepted welding practice.
2) Stay with the same material and type.

3) If you haven’t welded regularly, PLEASE PRACTICE-PRACTICE-PRACTICE FIRST before you weld a trailer, particularly high stress areas (like just about any structure on a trailer).

The welds need to be full penetration without voids or inclusions so when you practice you need to cross section your welds at multiple locations until you can consistently accomplish that. (This is why welding is a technical profession and requires skill qualification.

4) Welding ANY galvanized materials is hazardous to the welder and anyone in the general area, especially children. It is not just the immediate fumes, it is also the residual surface contamination of the surfaces the fumes come into contact with.

5) Welding ANY galvanized materials also requires specific surface preparations such as full grind back of the galvanizing from the surfaces for minimum specified distances from the weld region.

6) When welding different thicknesses of material the thinner material ends up with a disproportionate amount of the weld which can weaken the joint.

7) the welding process will anneal (lower) the strength of the materials at the joint location

8) Afterwards you will need to protect the weld and surrounding material (inside & out).

This isn’t for just your benefit, or your boat, or your wallet.... it is for the safety and well being of that family with toddlers behind you as you travel down the roadways

It is one thing to paste something together for the backyard art project, it is entirely different for hauling around something in the 3000 pound plus category at 50-60-70 MPH in a highway with other people, semi trucks with trailers and gasoline or propane tankers.

Take a very serious look everywhere on your existing trailer for ANY OTHER AREAS that have become rusted. Both inside and out. The most obvious aspect compromised may very well not be the only significant aspect compromised. One needs to be critical and objective.

Tapping with a ball peen hammer one can carefully differentiate ‘sound’ metal from ‘un-sound’ metal. Removing paint, rust, debris from the welded joints is needed to determine joint and material condition. Probing the interior tubes visually with a strong light. Inserting a strong magnet inside the tubes and pulling it through to see what rust flakes might exist. These can give you a better idea of the actual condition of your trailer.

Hope this helps.

8) 8) 🐩
User avatar
Dougiestyle
Engineer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:18 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rockport TX

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Dougiestyle »

It appears the trailer tongue has some pretty good corrosion. any photos?
You also need to inspect the axle it can trap water inside and rot out from the inside. Use a ball hammer on the bottom of the axle.
Dougiestyle
1998 26X , Nissan 50D, "Water Buffalo"
trdprotruck
First Officer
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:01 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Yorba Linda, CA

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by trdprotruck »

Ugh I'm disgusted after looking at all the rust. The 2nd picture is the paint cracking from when the tongue was bending under load. The last picture was a piece of galvanized angle that I welded many years ago when I found the hole near the crossmember.

Currently the bow is supported with some bricks and wood to take the weight off the trailer tongue.

I'm not sure if the tongue is salvageable even with bolting/welding a new 3x3 underneath.

ImageImageImageImageImageImage
ImageImage
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 6135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Tomfoolery »

trdprotruck wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:40 pmI'm not sure if the tongue is salvageable even with bolting/welding a new 3x3 underneath.
It's not. There's no metal there to weld to. And that's some serious rust right where the bending stresses are the highest - where the trailer side rails meet it. Time to just cut it out and replace it.

But the good news is that no matter what wall thickness you choose, the outside dimensions remain the same, other than the corner radii, which get bigger (softer curve) as the wall thickness goes up. So I would just bump it up to 1/4" or 5/16" wall. If a shop is doing it, they'll have a torch and can cut the coupler welds off easy peasy.

Mine was more lemon squeezy, as I had to use a small angle grinder, which took foreeeeever. :P
Tom
Be seeing you . . .
User avatar
Herschel
Admiral
Posts: 1349
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:22 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Trailer Tongue Question

Post by Herschel »

My pre-COVID project was dealing my rusty trailer. Ended up having a professional welder come out and replace all rusted parts. For me it was the cross beams. Then I completed the POR15 treatment complete with two coats of POR15 and two top coats. It was a good time to replace things like the bunk boards and carpet, winch, winch strap, bow roller and hardware, and spare tire bracket. I used a paint roller straighten out to get into the tongue shaft. I think it is worth the effort for peace of mind when towing. Good luck. 8)
Post Reply