IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

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OverEasy
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Sea Achor?

Post by OverEasy »

rick retiree wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:25 am My :macx: and I just back from a harrowing sail out of Calumet Harbor in the south basin of Lake Michigan. But before I begin my narrative let me apologize for not knowing sailing terminology so well(Im the fellow who thought it was a WHISKEY pole). Departed with 10 knot offshore breezes and 2 footers but within a few hours winds increased to 25 knots and gust to 30 knots IMHO and waves increased to 5+feet as NOAA predicted. Time to drop the sails and power in, unfortunately my Yammy 50 decided to lock up in the up position Since I am a senior citizen and sail singlehanded I was leary about climbing on deck to reef. Tried to close haul/close reach but she kept rounding up into wind & beam reach brought her over to 30+degrees. Mainsail took on parachute shape ahead of battens. Engaged genoa 10% for airfoill, little effect. So after 2 hours of floundering, dropped hook from cockpit(Modified to run anchor line lead from anchor roller to cockpit cleat). 4 hours later with same conditions called for rescue. I'm a newbie and glad 4 your advice.
Something that I’ve seen done is to have a “Sea Anchor” double line rigged a head of time when sailing single handed.
> The first line is tied to the open gather of the “Sea Anchor” and is long enough to reach from a bow cleat round the outside of the life lines and stantions back to the cockpit and secured.
> The second line is tied to the open gather of the “Sea Anchor” and is 2-1/2 times longer than the first line and is placed in the cockpit.
> That way when you need to “hove to” solo you deploy the sea anchor as you turn up wind holding the end of the second line which you will then tie off in the cockpit after the first line fully deploys.
> The bow will be held pointing into the wind by the drag of the “Sea Anchor”.

This would allow a solo sailer to be better able to reef or gather in the mail sail single handed and secure it.
It would also similarly allow a solo sailer to gather in a fore sail and secure it.

The solo sailer then retrieves the “Sea Anchor” with the second line back into the cockpit.

Hope this helps someone when the find that they need to sail solo.

Best Regards,
Over Easy
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Last edited by OverEasy on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jimmyt
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by Jimmyt »

Very old thread, but relevant topic I guess.

NOAA predicted 25-35 knots offshore blow and the newbie went sailing... by himself... and he's old... worried about going on deck in a blow... What could possibly go wrong? :|

At least he had enough sense not to go on deck untethered, in those conditions, to try and reef. Story might have had a more unpleasant ending.

Let's be perfectly clear. That is NOT newbie weather. If you're a newbie and it's forecast to blow over 15, drink a beer on the boat; in your slip at the marina (or on the trailer). Enjoy a safe day on your boat - without going sailing. You will be deliberately putting yourself (and any crew) in harms way to go out with a weather forecast like that.

If you can reef down to about a beach towel's worth of sail area, you can sail in that sort of weather, but it's not pleasant. Balanced, but very small sail area is my approach to sailing in a blow. Even then, a big gust will heel you over pretty hard on a reach. Trying to beat into it to get back to shore would be absolutely miserable.

If you have a 150 Genoa, trying to furl it in 35 knots is going to be interesting. Which brings us to the next point. If it's forecast to pick up, reef before it happens if at all possible. If he had gone on deck and reefed while it was blowing 10, it might have gone better, but I'm still betting it would have been a tow-in due to the offshore breeze.

If you aren't confident you can reef solo, leave the dock set up for the worst conditions forecast (pre-reefed). Chances are, the wind may not have checked the forecast - and might arrive at an earlier time. :wink:
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OverEasy
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Sea Anchor?

Post by OverEasy »

Quite right JimmyT!!!

Respect Mother Nature… She can be a @#$&* to the unprepared and inexperienced (& often to those that are prepared and experienced)! :o :? :cry: :wink: :D

There is a reason why people who have to go out in adverse conditions for a living tend to avoid those conditions when they don’t have to.

The intent of sharing the “Sea Anchor” technique is to share a means to more safely address the aspect of a sailboat’s tendency to move off point. It works in a variety of wind circumstances to help keep a vessel pointed into the wind.

I don’t doubt, based upon the discussions I’ve heard, that many are unaware of how to utilize a “Sea Anchor” safely whether solo or with crew. Pre-positioning a “Sea Anchor” before the weather runs foul or amiss can be iimportant to safely dealing with a variety of circumstances.

Even more importantly as you pointed out is it is a whole lot smarter and safer to avoid adverse wind when possible. Pre-emptively reef in before the wind becomes an issue. And to reef in more rather than less dependent upon one’s experience level and circumstances.

Thank you JimmyT!

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Last edited by OverEasy on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by Jimmyt »

Sea anchor discussion was great. I did have a question regarding the length of the retrieval line. Why 2-1/2 times the anchor line length? Seems like you would just add the anchor line length, the boat length, the chute length plus a fudge... :)

Just didn't want newbie's to think that all you have to do is get a sea anchor and you're single-hand ready for a 25-30 knot offshore blow...
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Sea Anchor?

Post by OverEasy »

Hi JimmyT

As it was explained to me:
> the length of Line 1 is to reach at least from the forward cleat around the outside of stantions and lifelines back to have ready access from the rear cockpit (plus a bit for stowing)
> the length of Line 2 is to be at least twice the length of Line 1 so that the “Sea Anchor” can be
=====>a) retrieved from the rear cockpit after one is done using the “Sea Anhor”
======>b) has enough surplus length to tie off when the “Sea Anchor” is deployed
And
======> c) has enough surplus length to adjust the angle of the boat if need be (such as when waves are coming from a slightly differing angle vs. the wind direction) to keep the bow facing into the oncoming waves

I appreciate your pointing this out to me as in my original post I omitted “c)” in the interest of simplicity which may not have been the best thing to do.

Mind you I’m only passing on what was handed down to me by several sailors with a great deal more seamanship and experience than I would ever credit myself with. But one does not have to have personal experience in adverse conditions to take the honest advice of those who make it their profession to venture forth in boats upon the sea.

(( :D :D Me would be the guy who prefers to be with the window seat at the pub looking out upon the raging windy sea content to sip my grog not far from the cozy fireplace :D :D . Me done my time as a younger man with face to the roaring elements almost daring Mother Nature to keep me from my dutiful tasks.🤨🤨 Me was a much younger man back then! :o :o :D :D Me smarter now, no go out and no longer thumb nose at Mother @#$&* Nature. Drink grog, stay warm, grow old gracefully with smile😉😉.))

😎😎🐩
Last edited by OverEasy on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by Be Free »

OverEasy wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:16 pm Hi JimmyT

...
(( :D :D Me would be the guy who prefers to be with the window seat at the pub looking out upon the raging windy sea content to sip my grog not far from the cozy fireplace :D :D . Me done my time as a younger man with face to the roaring elements almost daring Mother Nature to keep me from my dutiful tasks.🤨🤨 Me was a much younger man back then! :o :o :D :D Me smarter now, no go out and no longer thumb nose at Mother @#$&* Nature. Drink grog, stay warm, grow old gracefully with smile😉😉.))

😎😎🐩
My attitude used to be "This is going to make a great story to tell my grandkids.". Nine (soon to be ten) grandkids in I think I've collected enough stories to go around. I did pass some of that on to my kids though. According to our daughter, "It's not an adventure until somebody bleeds!".

Getting back on topic: I've never tried setting a sea anchor but I was aware that they can be a "bear" to retrieve. The extra line would certainly make it easier. If I understand it correctly, the second line is attached to the end of the sea anchor and is led back to the boat. Retrieving the line would turn the anchor with it's "back" to the waves, making it easier to retrieve (I'm imagining some type of series drogue arrangement). Is that right?
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OverEasy
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Sea Anchor?

Post by OverEasy »

Hi Be Free

Again, I’m NOT an expert.
This is information that was conveyed to me by people much more experienced than I ever hope to be (as I’m gonna be in the Pub window seat with that glass of grog and the nice fireplace when the weather turns foul and/or excessively windy. :D :D )
(I’ve got nuthin ta prove ta nobody! :P )

There are several different types and styles of “Sea Anchors” available.
Cone, Parachute, Basket, and one that looks like a Tear Drop are four that come to mind at the moment.
Each have their own variations and sub features.

The one I’m familiar with in at best a limited way is a simple fabric smooth side cone type that has a spring wire hoop at the open end.
If I recall correctly when open the open end is about 18 inches in diameter.
There are I believe four straps about that are equally spaced around the open end diameter at one end and that are gather to a ring at the other.
The closed end has an opening of about 4 or 6 inches I believe.
The cone is about 24 inches or so in length.
There isn’t a “trip line” on the closed end as I recall.
Sort of like the one pictured below:
Image


The two line approach I described earlier where the lines are attached to the ring at the open end ring is what I believe is called a “Shark Bridle” or a “Modified Fiorentino” Rig. One adjusts the Second Line in/out to change the wave incidence angle relative to the relevant wind conditions. Most of the time I would suspect the wave and wind directions aren’t too far off from each other.

Image

(SIDE NOTE: A derivation of a similar set-up can be utilized for emergency steering or as a speed limiting drogue in heavy storm condition. But that is another topic.)

I believe what you are describing where the Second Line is attached to the “closed end” of the “Sea Anchor” would be called a trip line
That could work as long as the “Sea Anhor” one was using had a ring at each end.
Yes, tying the retrieval line to the ‘closed’ end of the “Sea Anchor” would definitely make it easier to retrieve if that feature was available. Especially with larger parachute type “Sea Anchors”. But that said I believe most trip lines are free floating attached to a retrieval buoy as pictured below:

Image

Hope this helps when someone inadvertently finds themselves in a bum situation.
I’m a firm believer in the “Be Prepared” motto. :) :)

Now, seeing as I haven’t found a lot about the myriad uses and types of “Sea Anchors” on our forum I think I’m gonna have to dig deeper into this ….. 🤔😉

Best Regards,
Over Easy
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Last edited by OverEasy on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by SlowSL »

This may be a silly question...... I see people mention that it is hard to head up, the boat would rather head down in a blow, requiring a constant hand on the helm. I come from many years on Hobie Cats, the 26X is my first boat of this type, and have only had the sails up once. On the cats, we rake the rudders to the point that the boat naturally heads up on all points of sail, for safety, with both the main and jib up. Without the jib, it heads up even harder. On the X, If the headsail is furled or removed, only leaving the main, do these boats not have a tendency to round up into the wind?
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by Jimmyt »

SlowSL wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 pm This may be a silly question...... I see people mention that it is hard to head up, the boat would rather head down in a blow, requiring a constant hand on the helm. I come from many years on Hobie Cats, the 26X is my first boat of this type, and have only had the sails up once. On the cats, we rake the rudders to the point that the boat naturally heads up on all points of sail, for safety, with both the main and jib up. Without the jib, it heads up even harder. On the X, If the headsail is furled or removed, only leaving the main, do these boats not have a tendency to round up into the wind?
Lots more windage than a hobie cat. In a 25-30 knot blow, and 5+ft chop, heading up with sails and no motor, while single-handing without auto-pilot would seem difficult at best. I always take at least one crew. I'm 64, and "as good once as I ever was", but I've been sailing Mobile bay long enough to know that the weather can go to crap quickly. And, I'm not as good as I once was... :? Having two on board can make a huge difference in the degree of difficulty of most tasks. I'm fortunate enough to have family and friends that will generally produce at least one crew if I want to go sailing.

The only time I've been in conditions like that, I knew what I was getting into, was heavily reefed, and had one crew with me (middle daughter). It wasn't a relaxing sail, but there was never a moment when I thought we needed to reduce sail (since there was very little up to start with). Plus, we didn't have motor trouble. So, when we got ready to go back through the mouth of the river, I started the Etec and my daughter motored into the wind while I furled the remaining bit of main and Genoa. Then, we motored into the river. The wind direction would have allowed sailing in, but it might have gotten dicey, and the entrance won't allow full daggerboard.
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Re: Sea Anchor?

Post by Jimmyt »

OverEasy wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:18 pm There isn’t a “trip line” on the closed end as I recall.
Sort of like the one pictured below:
Image
Looks like it has a loop for a trip line on the narrow end. If you can't trip it, retrieving it will put you in a quartering, or following condition while trying to haul it in from the cockpit. Might be very hard to haul in single-handed, and control the boat, as you're surfing down wind... Maybe I'm missing something (as usual :| ).

But, the point is accurate. The original poster would have to deploy a sea anchor of some sort, head up, and reduce sail while the sea anchor controlled the boat. Then, at some point, he would retrieve the sea anchor and try to beat his way upwind back toward the shore; without his motor and presumably without an auto pilot.

Interesting tidbit from north sails that dovetails into Overeasy's discussion.

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2 ... gh-a-storm
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by Jimmyt »

SlowSL wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 pm This may be a silly question...... I see people mention that it is hard to head up, the boat would rather head down in a blow, requiring a constant hand on the helm. I come from many years on Hobie Cats, the 26X is my first boat of this type, and have only had the sails up once. On the cats, we rake the rudders to the point that the boat naturally heads up on all points of sail, for safety, with both the main and jib up. Without the jib, it heads up even harder. On the X, If the headsail is furled or removed, only leaving the main, do these boats not have a tendency to round up into the wind?
And, in big seas, I've seen a hobie fall off and go boom down in the blink of an eye while trying to beat. Of course, the guy had full main and jib up at the time. :wink:
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Sea Anchor?

Post by OverEasy »

Hi JimmyT

As I recall the discussion with the experienced sailors, retrieval of the “Sea Anchor” can be accomplished as the boat turns away from the wind and the “Sea Anchor” moves in toward the stern of the vessel. Taking a moment to use the assets available one could easily start by wrapping the retrieval line around the winch so that it can also help relieve some of the strain of pulling it in. Once wrapped retrieval can be done from the helm position which is also why to have the retrieval line longer than the First Line.

The “Sea Anchor” drains as it is lifted free. I was cautioned that one does not have to lift it in full. There is no reason to do so. There is no hurry or stop watch ticking. Just give it a minute or two and pull it in slowly and all the water runs out.

Now all of this is predicated by the caveat that this was advice from others who spend a lot of time at sea, is dependent upon the particular equipment available and the condition of the environment for wind and water and temperature. (Try doing even the simplist tasks when it is at or below freezing is bad enough but add in water 💦 wind 💨 and waves 🌊 this sailing adventure can all go very sideways in a real hurry! :o :? :cry: :P :cry: :( ).

I liked the article you linked. It was very good common sense.
In critical system, equipment, technology and mitigation planning there are a couple phrases … “Accidents Aren’t” … That applies to about 99% of things in life … “Active Adverse Situational Avoidance” … is another … “Plan/Prepare/Practice for the Worst and Expect it to be Worse”.

Now there will eventually be outside factors beyond ones control or capabilities. As my Dad, my EMS training, my flight instruction and diverse Engineer training drilled it into my head to always have a Plan A, a Plan B and at least a Plan C that are all to be constantly adjusted and adapted to the ever changing circumstances. When moving off of Plan A to Plan B one better darn well be working up a Plan D and so on. The Primary Risk Mitigation should always be the Pre-Emptive Planned Avoidance of Risk. This applies Not only for oneself, or loved ones, or people you are responsible for, but also for those who place themselves as the last line of defense in harm’s way when things have gone very very sideways.

After having had all the adventures I can stand as a much younger me, my primary plan and heartfelt advice is to head to the pub if there is any chance of adverse conditions. I’ll be that guy at the window seat with my grog and the nice fire looking out thinking ‘It’s nice in here. Glad I made it in before it got nasty’.

Best Regards,
Over Easy
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by Be Free »

+1. My interest is purely academic. I have no plans of being out in conditions that would require any type of sea anchor. On those very few-and-far-between times I venture more than 20 miles or so from shore I keep a close eye on the weather and already have one or more bail-out spots picked out and marked on the plotter. I'm really not interested in new adventures, particularly if they involve bleeding.
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Sea Anchor?

Post by OverEasy »

Hi Be Free!

!!!!🩸Bleeding 🩸!!!!

:? :? :o :o :cry: :cry: Who said anything about Bleeding???? :cry: :cry: :o :o :? :?

Me no like idea of bleeding………….. :D :D


For those not familiar with how a “Sea Anchor” works in HEAVY SEAS I came across the following image.
While this image has the “Sea Anchor” rigged from the stern (which I believe it is termed a “Drogue” when secured to the Stern), the effect is similar when rigged from the Bow.

Image

The intent is to keep the secured end of the boat pointed into the waves and keep the vessel from gettin turned broadside to the wind and waves. It is a lot better to have waves break over the Bow or Stern.

As can be seen on a dozen or more YouTube videos, allowing a vessel to freely (or under sail or being powered) surf in large waves is a recipe for disaster and is an out of control condition that can be very hard if not impossible to recover from.

While, if I were to screw up and find myself in heavy seas (😣 yes I would consider it a personal failure 😣), I might prefer to naturally be inclined to be bow into the waves, I also acknowledge I might not have any choice in the matter ( such as the 33M sailboat capsize survival story presented by the Australian version of 60 Minutes recently).

:D P. Ad Omnes per fenestram reside sextarios grog fruatur diebus calorem ignis ventosa tempestas. :D

Best Regards,
Over Easy
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Re: IS THE PROBLEM THE SAILS OR THE SAILOR?

Post by Jimmyt »

OverEasy wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:23 pm As I recall the discussion with the experienced sailors, retrieval of the “Sea Anchor” can be accomplished as the boat turns away from the wind and the “Sea Anchor” moves in toward the stern of the vessel. Taking a moment to use the assets available one could easily start by wrapping the retrieval line around the winch so that it can also help relieve some of the strain of pulling it in. Once wrapped retrieval can be done from the helm position which is also why to have the retrieval line longer than the First Line.
To be clear, I'm enjoying our conversation in this thread; and I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just throwing out some ideas/thoughts.

You are right on point with the winches being about the only way to retrieve an active sea anchor. Mine are almost amidship, meaning I'd have to run the sea anchor line through a point at the bow or stern to maintain an appropriate orientation with the waves. So, if you've lead the line through an eye or something similar, and made it fast in the cockpit area - where it can be transferred to the winch.... well, you're good. If you're made fast at the bow, transferring the line to the winch will be almost impossible. If you use a secondary line led to the cockpit area, and put that on the winch, it would seem to cause the bow to fall off as you bring the retrieve (new anchor) point near amidship. So, if you made the primary point fast at the bow, and led the retrieval line, through a bow eye, and back to the winch, it would seem that your proposed method would work.

In fact, if you intend to deploy a sea anchor to allow you to reduce sail, while single-handing in a blow, that may give you the most controllable situation. There will be that point during retrieval that the sea anchor starts to break free of the surface, then may get another bite as the bow comes down. I'm envisioning that the transition back to sailing may get kind of hairy as you are attempting to get the sea anchor up, control the helm, and get the sails set (remember that we are traveling in reverse at this point... 8)

In contrast, a trip line in the cockpit area would seem to make the operation much easier. Once you trip the chute/anchor, you can immediately concentrate on sailing. Then retrieve the anchor at your leisure using the trip line which will be under much less tension.
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