Keel Lock Down Bolt

[ChockFullOnuts22]

Hey, Henry! No lockdown bolt in that knockdown? I really thought I'd read that you used one---but thanks for the correction here! Did your boat sustain any damage when the keel swung into the trunk?

How's Chiquita doing these days?

Pete - It's your call. The only time you're going to need that bolt is if/when your boat would ever get knocked down. If you don't put yourself at that kind of risk, it won't be a problem.

[heinzir]

Doing good! Check out the pictures on the link in my signature.

Henry
http://sports.webshots.com/slideshow/230613770IXBurv

[flynfol]

Hello all,

I have been watching this string with interest, and have been hesitant to post a reply. Well here goes. I have a Venture 25 with an iron swing keel. The previous owner sailed the boat primarily on Lake Michigan, in occasional heavy seas. I should take pictures of the repair to give you a better idea, but basically the area directly behind the lockdown bolt was torn out....right through the inner cabin liner behind that. From what I understand, the PO would sail without the lockdown bolt through the keel, and loosen the winch to the point where the top of the keel would rest against the bolt. This eventual beating in heavy seas tore the bolt aft and knocked a sizeable hole in the top rear of the trunk and penetrating the inner liner(as the keel swung fore and aft). The repair effected is adequate, not pretty, but then getting to that area is very problematic. A large opening was made in the liner (on the companionway side)where the keel bolt access holes are, and the area where the keelbolt goes through was reinforced quite a bit.

Fast forward. I also sail in Lake Michigan, and as all great lakes sailors know can get heavy quickly. I always keep the lockdown bolt installed when sailing there. I also sail occasionally in waters where sudden rocks, boulders, etc. can ruin your day(North Channel). I initially sailed in the NC with the bolt in place, but not through the keel. But the keel would bump mercilessly against the bolt(again fore and aft in heavy seas). Nothing keeps the keel from swinging aft in heavy seas. So I placed the bolt through the keel(no easy feat mind you). I was worried about uncharted obstacles, and the fact the water level was down appreciably. I have had a couple hits while sailing there, and other than the bolt being bent, which had to be hammered through with a punch to get the keel up, everything seems to be holding together.

So, I guess the answer is depending on your circumstances, bolt in or out.

By the way, that repair looks to have been a real PITA to effect and wouldn't wish that one on anyone.

Fairwinds, John

[JoeVacs]

I never use my lockdown bolt, but I'm never in winds strong enough to make the boat lean anywhere near a knockdown condition. The lockdown bolt holes on my boat don't leak, but then again, my keel is a little bit swollen and that may be a factor. Some simple rubber plugs would probably be sufficient in your case.

I understand your position, Pete, but it's DEFINITELY possible to knock down a Venture passed the 90° mark. If you go over fast and far enough to get your sails wet, you are going to be in trouble if the sails are still secured in their cleats/winches. Do an internet search about a Venture 23 of Newport (named "Chiquita," if I remember correctly)(Great Lakes Sailor magazine??). This Venture 23, swing keel, was hit and knocked down by a sudden microburst. In the guy's article, he says that his sails hit the water, filled, and the boat ended up rolling belly-up. He had his lockdown bolt in place, so the keel stayed in the "down" position. The weight of the water-filled sails overpowered the ballast of the swing keel and held the boat upside down for quite a while. In fact, in the article, the owner of that boat writes that he climbed up on the hull, grabbed the keel, and tried to roll the boat back over like you do with the smaller centerboard boats---but it wouldn't budge under his effort.

The boat did eventually right itself, but the flotation had been removed and the boat filled with water and sank as it rolled back upright again. Don't worry, he raised the boat and repaired all of the water Damage.

Anyway, it doesn't take total inversion like "Chiquita" to cause damage. I my marina, we have a Catalina 25' with a swing keel that has been sitting on a cradle for a year because of keel trunk damage. The guy was raising his keel on his way into the marina, and the cable broke when the keel was about halfway up. The keel fell back against the trunk and cracked it pretty badly. More likely than not, if you get knocked down enough that your mast gets wet, your keel is going to swing back up into the boat. And if your keel has been re-laminated, and isn't swollen against the trunk at all, you have very little friction to slow all of that momentum down.

Use of the lockdown bolt is a boat owner's own choice; but never underestimate what can happen during a knockdown--especially when the keel isn't locked in place.

Actually, the keel was not locked down. It did swing back up into the well as the boat inverted but did no damage. I clawed at the few inches of board sticking out of the slot trying to get it out but I didn't stand a chance against 600lbs.

Here is a link to the original article -- I don't know how it ended up on LancerOwners.com. I had posted it on MacgregorOwners.com but it disappeared from there and showed up on CatalinaOwners.com. Then it disappeared from there. The cyber gods work in mysterious ways.
http://lancer.sailboatowners.com/index. ... Itemid=222

In spite of this misadventure I still do not use the lock down bolt, and I've gotten back into the habit of sailing her pretty hard. But my sailing is on an inland lake with lots of weeds and no docks deeper than 4 ft. I often have to raise and lower the keel several times to shed the cable of weeds. I do make sure to keep the hatches closed if I anticipate a lot of heeling. I ALWAYS have the mainsheet in my hand when sailing hard, ready for instant release. I have also installed a lot of sail controls to depower the rig when necessary. This includes downhauls, Cunninghams, a powerful outhaul, and single-line reefing set ups for both reefs all lead to the cockpit.

Henry Rodriguez
Chiquita
http://sports.webshots.com/slideshow/230613770IXBurv

Henry, ........Can I have your boat ?

[johnnyonspot]

Doing good! Check out the pictures on the link in my signature.

Henry
http://sports.webshots.com/slideshow/230613770IXBurv

Wow, that is a beautiful boat! You are obviously very handy, patient and dedicated. Great looking grandkids, too! I trust those are the grand kids. I bet they have a load of fun on the boat. Was that coachroof modified to have the straight vertical rise from the foredeck? In any case, it is very aesthetically pleasing.

[heinzir]

Thanks for the compliments. I've owned her for over 30 years and still consider her to be a work in progress. The squared off cabin front is OEM. The Macgregor Venture 23 is a unique boat. It has, essentially, the under water shape of the Venture 21 (making her very fast), the interior accommodation of the Venture 222, and the style and rig of an 1890s Pilot Cutter. You can see pictures of many other Venture 23s in various stages of restoration and learn more about these awesome little ships at the Venture Newport website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venturenewport/

The pictures in the slide show on my Webshots site were taken over many years. Some show my two girls when they were little. As it turns out, we are now raising 3 grandchildren. Devon and Jade are now 8 and 9. Little Monet is not quite 3; she's the one showing off the new cedar interior. All love being on the boat but Monet has really taken to it. She insists on rowing whenever we take the dinghy out; yesterday she actually rowed me out to the mooring while singing "Row, row, row your boat!"

Henry
http://sports.webshots.com/slideshow/230613770IXBurv

[ChockFullOnuts22]

You've definitely done a great job with the boat, Henry. And you say you've owned her for over 30 years? Did you buy her new? And those red sails; are they OEM?

My V2-22 has been in the family for 30 years this year. It's amazing to see how much a boat can change over that length of time when you compare the way the boat is now to photographs from years ago.

[heinzir]

I was the third owner when I bought her in 1978. She was completely stock except for the bowsprit. A previous owner replaced the OEM "pole" with a wider plank for better footing.

The OEM sails were white with a yellow band near the top (mainsail), blue and white striped (staysail), and solid yellow (yankee jib.) I replaced them with tanbark sails in 1982, and finally replaced those this year -- also with tanbark for a traditional look.





Henry
http://sports.webshots.com/slideshow/230613770IXBurv

[ChockFullOnuts22]

Henry,

I think your tanbark sails are a big improvement over the OEM scheme. More classy look.

You never indicated whether or not your boat suffered any kind of damage when that keel swung up into the bottom of the boat during the knockdown. Did you have any repairs to make to the keel or the trunk after that incident?

And speaking of the keel...does your boat have the fiberglass encapsulated keel, or the cast iron one?

[Pete]

OK so from what I have seen here, it seams that there has never been a case of damage from the keel swinging back into the trunk. If this could happen it would have on Chiquita duing the capsize. Also the only damage has been from the keel lock down bolt being left inplace and the keel lowered aginst it. My boat has an elongated hole from this pratice and others have noted more extensive damage.

[heinzir]

Chiquita did not suffer any damage to the centerboard trunk when the keel swung up. There is damage around the lock down bolt hole -- it is elongated to about 4"! This did not happen during the knockdown. I don't think it is a result of the top of the keel resting against the bolt in normal use either. I have had the keel cable break twice during the last 30 years. The keel came crashing down with considerable force. The combined weight and leverage actually bent the lock bolt into a U shape and ripped the fiberglass several inches. I sail without the bolt now; the hole is just plugged with silicone. I plan on doing a more extensive repair this winter, involving cutting away a portion of the liner for access.

I had always thought I had the cast iron keel but now I notice a couple of cracks in the (apparently) fiberglass. I'll check it out with a magnet when I pull the boat next month. I have never had the keel off the boat. The most I have done with it was to support the forward end with a jack and drive the pivot bolt out to check for wear.

Henry

[ChockFullOnuts22]

Yeah, Pete, I'm agreeing with you; especially after what Henry just said about the damage he sustained when the keel cable broke (4"--OUCH). Resting the top of the keel against the bolt doesn't seem at all good for the boat, as testimonies here have shown. Such use is definitely not what MacGregor designed it for.

Bolting it through the keel (as designed), however, might still be a good idea in heavy conditions (although not in the shallows). Even if the keel won't bust the trunk in a knockdown, it will still do a better/faster job levering the boat upright if the ballast remains fully in the down position and well below the waterline. It boils down to two questions: are you sailing in conditions that have you risking a knockdown, and where do you want your center of gravity to be if and when the boat goes over?

Isn't there a rubber "bumper" up in the trunk that the top of the keel rests against when in the down position? My boat has one---although I don't know if it's OEM or an add-on from the original owner. The original owner broke two keel cables from hitting things on the bottom of the lake he was in. No damage to the trunk, though. Have any of you noticed such a bumper in your keel trunk?

Henry, good luck with your repairs this winter. Hopefully your keel isn't delaminating, if you have the fiberglassed one. It's never a fun job to refurbish it.

[heinzir]

Yes, mine had a rubber bumper in there once. When I was young and foolish ("I wonder what this bolt is for?") I pulled the bolt out and lost the bumper in the water. Been thinking about replacing it (with a rubber hockey puck?) but am having trouble figuring out how to get it up in there without dropping the keel.

Henry

[ChockFullOnuts22]

A rubber hockey puck? I don't know how it compares to the compression properties of the original bumper, but I don't see why that wouldn't work. It's got to be better than keel-to-trunk contact, right?

I think you'd have to drop the keel to install a new bumper or even a subsitute like a hockey puck. It might be possible to slide something up in there with a long tool of some sort, but it's tight quarters with the keel installed.

[heinzir]

Does your keel actually contact the rubber bumper? I've been sailing for quite a few years without it and have never had any keel to trunk contact; there seems to be plenty of clearance. That's why I haven't gotten around to replacing it yet. Maybe if the keel were to swing forward of vertical? Or could its purpose be to cushion impact on the lock down bolt?

Henry