The Bomb exploded on my Motor (a bit long)

[delevi]

I have restrained myself from posting this for nearly two months, but can hold out no longer. I have exhausted most of my options and feel that it is time to consult with my MacGregor friends.

The story:
My Etec 50 has developed a miss-fire in the 2000-3000 RPM range. At this range, the engine goes kaplunk, kaplunk, shakes violently and basically behaves like it is starved for fuel. If I drop throttle below 2000 RPM or increase throttle above 3000 RPM, the engine resumes to run normally. I took to the mechanic (authorized Evenrude service provider) and my troubles escalated. After series of diagnoses, and the replacement of numerous parts, the problem has not gone away. Throughout the process, the technical rep at BRP has guided the mechanic through the process. He followed their recommendations every step of the way. The laptop has been hooked up to the EMM (engine’s main computer) and various settings have been tweaked. The problem can be alleviated while the laptop is hooked up but comes back when disconnected. From what I’m told, the settings which alleviate the problem are for diagnostic purposes only and cannot be saved. I now have new: fuel injectors, fuel pump, oil pump+software, filters, throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, spark plugs, new gaskets, new shutter valve, and various minor parts I can’t recall at the moment. I have asserted throughout the process that I believe the problem is electronic, not mechanical. Of course, I’m not a mechanic or engineer and know little of such things. The mechanic and BRP refused to accept that the problem is electronic and hold that position to this point. So after nearly two months consisting of various delays, broken promises, canceled sailing tips, etc, I get the following: “I tried everything. I can’t think of anything else that can be done. I just can’t fix the problem.” Bear in mind that my engine is over 5 years old now, making it more than 2 years out of warranty. I have approximately 500 hours on it, which is substantial but nowhere close to excessive.
Without the mechanic’s “good will,” my bill would be astronomical. As it stands, he offered to cut the billable hours more than in half and charge me his cost for the parts. The fuel pump and injectors were sent courtesy of BRP as “good will.” Even with all this, I owe nearly $2K. For an engine which is running just slightly better than when I initially took it in. As additional “good will,” the mechanic proposed another alternative. He would waive the bill in exchange for the engine. Additionally, he would install a new engine of my choice at no cost.

Sooo……

As I see it, I’m screwed no matter what. I see the following choices before me (please feel free to offer other choices.)

1. Take him up on his offer and buy a new engine.
2. Take the boat back and pay the bill.
3. Take the boat back and insist on a lower bill.
4. Get BRP involved to see if they would either send someone out that can fix the problem or take the engine back and give me some allowance (credit) towards a new engine. Or basically, anything they can do to help me rectify the problem.

Each solution, of course, has drawbacks.

#2&3 taking the boat back: I will not feel comfortable operating the boat with this problem. Maybe I’m over-reacting but this is how I feel at the moment. If I do this, I would be inclined to sell the boat (disclosing the problem to the perspective buyer.) That said, I figure that I won’t get much for the boat with a known engine problem, especially considering it’s a buyer’s market. Anyone on this forum who is familiar with boat knows it is loaded/upgraded to the gills, but who would be comfortable with a known engine problem? Not many I recon, unless the “price was right” for the buyer.
#4 seems reasonable but will probably cost me another month of down time. Also, from what I’ve read on this forum and others, BRP is awful to deal with once you’re out of warranty… so I figure my odds of getting some relief from them aren’t good.
So now with #1 (new engine.)
This will set me back $7-$8K. If I do this, I will want a 90HP engine. Please don’t suggest anything less. If I’m going through the trouble and the expense, I must have 90 HP.
Now if I get another Etec, the swap is straight forward I won’t need to buy any accessories i.e. cables, lines, gages, etc. It is also the smallest/lightest 90HP outboard on the
market today (to my knowledge.) The downside is I’m furious with BRP and the notion of throwing money at them makes me even more furious. Quite the catch 22. Plus, after all this, I’m seriously questioning the quality of Etec. From reading stuff online, most people are very happy with their etec engines, but there are always some who have had major problems, some more serious than mine. Some of these problems have gone unresolved.
I’m open to suggestions on the Honda 90, Merc 90, Yamaha 90, Tohatus 90, Suzuki 90, and the Etec 90. My absolute requirement is for the engine to tilt completely under the seat. This may eliminate all but the Etec, Tohatsu and Honda. I know the Etec 90 will fit for sure, per my Mac dealer who has installed one. The Honda, at least visually is of similar size and weighs just 40 lbs more than the Etec. Not bad since it’s a 4-stroke. Not sure about the Tohatsu, but seems small enough on the pictures.

OK. There’s my story and dilemma. Please post suggestions, opinions or whatever regarding any part of this. Thank you.

Injured and crying,
Leon

[Russ]

I don't know who BRP is..but it sounds like time for a new mechanic. He may be full of "good will" but all that has put you $2k in the hole without a resolution and the use of your boat.

I'm sure the mechanic has put in a lot of time (spinning his wheels and running up the tab) but it hasn't fixed the problem. I don't see how he can charge you and not have fixed your engine.

From what you described, I would agree it's something electronic.
The statement “I tried everything. I can’t think of anything else that can be done. I just can’t fix the problem.” is a cop out. He refuses to try electronics. How about a sensor or computer? "I just can't fix the problem" is unacceptable.



--Russ

[MadMacX]

Leon,

None of the proposed "solutions" takes you into consideration, they are all basically working in the other party's favor, and at this point the other party is not your friend. Some variation of number 4 is the only solution that I would consider and even then I would have all the financial details worked out in advance. Whatever you do, don't sell your boat and take a financial beating over this problem.

I agree with Russ that the problem is most certainly an electrical problem. My guess is that the laptop provides the GROUND that the E-tec needs to run properly. And while the mechanic may be a good guy....he is hardly a good mechanic. When a mechanic throws up his hands in frustration, he is proving his limited value. In order to resolve this mess you need the support of Evinrude, BRP and the servicing dealer. I think a well reasoned letter requesting their assistance in resolving this problem might be the right action to take. The one thing that I have found to work in the past was to be an unrelenting pest, with phone calls, letters and e-mails. It's amazing what some corporate types will do to get rid of pesky customers.

Good luck, Leon. Please keep us posted on your efforts.

Pat

[TAW02]

Program Flash is shot. It's a microcontroller issue. Expensive is why it is being overlooked. Purposely?

Could be.

Big T

[Craig LaForce]

I would also suggest a new mechanic. They should be able to diagnose the problem if they are any good. My dad had a saying.
"half of the (doctors, dentists, mechanics, use whatever word applies at the time) graduated in the bottom half of their class.
there are 2 kinds of mechnics. One kind randomly swaps parts out to see if it fixes the problem, a good one uses his brain and diagnostic tools/methods first then fixes the problem.

When I was younger we had these large control computers at a plant, each the size of a refrigerator. A computer guy worked on one of them all day and swapped out every part on it. Power supply, hard disk, various boards. I (not a computer guy mind you) walked in to check his progress and noticed a bunch of wires that connected from the hinged door to the inner technical stuff. I told him he probably had a short or break in one of the wires. He was angry that I would have the audacity to suggest anything to him, since he was a trained computer guy. I insisted he try swapping out the ribbon cable. He did and it fired right up. that guy must have been a sailor, because he let loose some choice language as he packed up his boxes of replacement parts.

[Retcoastie]

I feel for you,Leon. I been down that road several times over the years. If I read you post correctly,

The problem can be alleviated while the laptop is hooked up but comes back when disconnected.

the question I would be asking is, "What mechanical part changes when the computer is connected or disconnected?" The injector, pumps, plugs, sensors, etc. did not go from defective to operational to defective by connecting a laptop. The culprit surely has to do with the Control electronics. I would be very forceful that that line be explored thoroughly, at their expense.

Good Luck and please let us know how things go.

Ken

[Hamin' X]

I agree that it is most likely an electronic control fault and a bad/broken ground, at that. Most strange electrical/electronic problems can be traced to bad grounds. Often times, when a part fails and is replaced, it gets fixed by getting a good ground when installing the new part. Sometimes a component will fail due to a bad ground on another part, forcing the poorly grounded part to seek a ground through the failed part that was not rated for the current. You can see this in radio gear, where there are often times a fuse in both the positive and negative leads. Why? Because if a high current device, the starter for example, were to lose a good ground to the battery, it would seek one through the metal body-antenna coax-negative lead from the radio and back to the battery. Check your grounds and run temporary ones to all parts, inside the engine and between external controls and engine. It sounds like your "mechanic" is not well "grounded" in troubleshooting.

~Rich

[Russ]

Years ago when I was young and gullible I took my car into a mechanic.
He replaced the fuel pump and it didn't fix the problem. Then he replaced the computer and it worked. He didn't take the fuel pump out and refund me for his
"test". I never went back to him.

Re-reading the statement "The problem can be alleviated while the laptop is hooked up but comes back when disconnected." tells me it must be electronic related. It would really really make me mad if this turns out to be a bad ground and this guy spun his wheels to a coupla thousand dollars in experimenting.

--Russ

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

If you do go with a motor change I can certainly recommend the Tohatsu TLDI 90. It is actually lighter than the eTec. The Evinrude weighs 320lbs while the Tohatsu is only 315lbs. The displacement is very similar with the eTec at 1296cc's and the Tohatsu at 1267cc's. The Tohatsu power head is very compact and I'm sure it will tilt fully without hitting the seat.

I've never had a single problem with either of my Tohatsu's over the last 10 years. The old Tohatsu 50 that came with the boat was bullet proof and the TLDI 90 is continuing in that tradition. Maintenance is basically nil, and they just start and run no matter how badly you treat them. Since you are already used to the benefits of a 2 stroke you might want to continue with one by switching to the Tohatsu.

That said, from your descriptions it clearly sounds like the problem is the on board computer. Have them swap it as a test, it's a simple task, I have both the 70 hp and the 90 hp computer for my Tohatsu and changing one out is a 5 minute job. I can't imagine it is any harder on a eTec. What do they have to loose? Chances are it will fix the problem and while you may not like the price of the new part it's still cheaper than a new motor.

Can they not determine which mechanical part is causing the noise / problem? Once they know this they should be able to look at the electronic components that monitors and/or controls that function. If it's not an independent sub system then it is the main computer it self.

[Hardcrab]

Duane Dunn, Allegro,
I have the Tohatsu 90 TLDI on an M.

For information, it does hit the seat before full up tilt is reached, but it's out of the water, so no big deal, IHMO.
We tilt up until it bumps, lower a tad, and go about our business.
We put some sticky sided felt strips at the contact point on the seat to save the cosmetics, works okay.

What I don't know is if the seat can be lowered after the engine is full up, like for trailering or whatnot.

[Don T]

Hello,
It ain't rocket science, fuel, fire and compression is all it needs. The problem could be as simple as a bad ground, crosstalk between the timing control circuits and the coils (does anyone remember the trouble ford had with the turbo 4 cyl) or logic board / programming EPROM or even a bad diode in the charging system. A scope can look at injector signals, timing signals, primary/secondary ignition patterns, sensor inputs etc. There is no excuse for not fixing it or at least not knowing what's wrong. Anyone who looks at it now must assume no one has worked on it and look at everything. You are lucky that even with all this work they have not ruined the conditions of the test and can duplicate the problem. As long as it is a hard failure it can be found. Your mechanic has brain lock, he needs to snap out of it and honor the money he has charged and promises made.

My Daddy used to say "There is always a reason for a high price but there's no excuse for poor workmanship." You want your Etec running not a damn discount.

[Blue Reef]

Sounds like it would be cheapest and easiest to buy a laptop, load it with BRP software and keep it attached to the motor when out on the water.

Is that not as stupid as it sounds??

Okay, maybe it is.

Its a shame it didn't happen a few years ago when the motor was under warranty. I bet they would have found the problem by now, if it was on their time.

Cam

[Russ]

For information, it does hit the seat before full up tilt is reached, but it's out of the water, so no big deal, IHMO.
We tilt up until it bumps, lower a tad, and go about our business.
We put some sticky sided felt strips at the contact point on the seat to save the cosmetics, works okay.

What I don't know is if the seat can be lowered after the engine is full up, like for trailering or whatnot.

That's what I used to do with my Suzuki until I found the top end tilt limiter adjustment. I've got the banged up motor and seat to prove it. Now, it tilts and stops perfectly 1/4 inch from the seat with motor fully out of the water.

I bet the Tohatsu as a similar tilt control adjustment.


--Russ

[Gazmn]

So sorry about the headaches Leon. E-tecs can be great - or a great pain in the ______

I get the feeling that a new, more powerful motor is in the work$ for you. Any brand that is serviceable in your immediate area should be fair game. Get a transom jack plate and you should be able to dial in that angle that would lift your motor but not hit your seat. Or just have it back enough that it clears your overstuffed transom

Personally, I'd try and squeeze a deal out of BRP. First I'd try sugar & escalate up to and including: hinting at lawyers and making it your internet business to list your woes to potential E-tec buyers

It's a buyers market you won't get your value and satisfaction $elling your inve$tment.

I'd also beg you to consider an E-tec 115hp. 4 cylinders = More Torque. I'm not getting the speeds I'd like with my 90 [Unless u want to buy mine - & I'll get a 115 ] but the motor checks out Aok.

Plus the electronics are Much Better in the new E-tecs more monitoring options and I think they've worked out the bugs.

[delevi]

Thank you all who replied. My line of thinking is right on with what the majority of you recommend, which is to fight this. I have involved BRP today who will be contacting the mechanic. I'll keep at it and become a major pest if need be. It is an awful situation and I really feel like I'm being taken advantage of. So I will be sure to exhaust all options before considering a new engine. Truth is, as much as I would love a 90 HP, I simply can't afford it right now, and I certainly don't want to be "forced" to replace an engine with 500 hours on it, particularly one that is rated as "the cat's meaow."

Gazmn,
Surprised to hear you don't get enough oomph out of that 90. What sort of speeds are you getting at WOT, curising? full/empty ballast. I vaguely recall reading on this site that the hull will max out around 25 knots. If this is true, then perhaps a 115 HP wouldn't change anything. No frame of reference here. Just throwing it out there.

Leon