Propulsion Pros & Cons

A forum for discussing topics relating to older MacGregor/Venture sailboats.
User avatar
noahvale
Deckhand
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:11 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 25
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by noahvale »

I've never heard anything but good about Tohatsu outboards. That one is cheap, only $21 less than what I paid for my V25. 8)
My boat had a first year Honda 4 stroke on it when I got it. It had been sitting in saltwater for years and was worn out. I found a freshwater only used Suzuki 9.9 longshaft 2 stroke on ebay for $435 shipped. It runs like a sewing machine. Noisy and stinky and cheap...
User avatar
Duane Dunn, Allegro
Admiral
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
Contact:

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro »

For propulsion, a 110v generator is the wrong choice. You have to pair it with a high amp output 110v charger to create a system that can keep up with the load and you are just wasting juice as you go through all the voltage conversions.

Here are hard numbers from the two electric motors currently installed on my boat. You can read details of the project so far here. http://rudderprop.com/

Both motors are MinKota RT55EM's. They are 12 volt, 55 lb thrust motors. I choose the 'Engine Mount' style because of my unique installation design. They are designed to be mounted on the cavitation plate of a large outboard. The motor controller is separate from the motor itself and can be mounted inside the boat. Instead, I removed the mounting hardware they came with and created my own that mounted them in my 26X rudders. Right now I have these4" pitch Kipawa props on them. http://www.kipawapropellers.com/index.html . Once the system is complete they will have higher 8" pitch feathering props that just become extensions of the rudder surface when not running.

With both motors running at full power my very accurate Link 10 Amp hour meter recorded just under 60amps of load. One alone consumed 30 amps. This was a very consistent load as we made a one hour long cruise both down and up wind in a 10-15 knot breeze out on Lake Washington. They had no problem at all moving the boat into this breeze and there was not even a 1 knot speed difference into the wind verses with the wind.

At the moment I have two 6v Golf Cart batteries installed giving me a 225ah 12v battery bank. You should never discharge the bank further than 50% so I have 2 hours of run time on battery alone. My plan for the completed system is to add another pair of 6v batteries giving me a 450ah bank and 4 hours of cruising under battery power alone.

To extend this range I have paired a Christie Engineering G12-80 12 v generator with the system.

These are sold in the states by Alten, http://www.altenbatterychargers.com/bat ... ineup.html .

The 80 amps of 12v power is more than enough to run both motors at full speed without needing any power from the battery bank. The efficiency of this system is quite amazing, read the info I posted about this at my rudderprop.com web site. The generator will of course charge the batteries as well if needed and also run a ton of 12v amenities while out on a cruise.

Take note that these 12v generators, and most high amperage 110v to 12v battery chargers have two voltage levels. You choose the lower one for 'online' use when either is providing power power for devices such as propulsion motors. You choose the higher one for battery charging.

If you do go electric and use trolling motors be sure you do not use any of the 5 speed motors on the market. These are very inefficient and actually use the same amount of power on low as they do on high. Rather than sending less power to the motor on low they use 'load coils' to absorb the excess power and turn it into heat. This is just a waste of power. You want to buy the better models that use what MinKota calls it's 'Digital Maximizer' giving you a infinitely variable speed that uses much less power. Other brands have the same technology that goes by different names. Just never use a cheap 5 speed model from any brand.
User avatar
Sumner
Admiral
Posts: 2375
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:20 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26S
Location: SE Utah
Contact:

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Sumner »

rgranger wrote:Well maybe I should just bite the bullet and get an OB

Tohatsu seems to be the best price that I've been able to find.

Anyone with experience with this model?

http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohatsu- ... A3EFL.html

r
In about a week we are ordering that one except in the extra long shaft and only doing that as we want to do some ocean sailing. Right now we have a long shaft Honda and it has worked fine, but isn't electric start.

I think you would be very smart to order that one since the electric start gives you a big safety margin as anyone on the boat could start it. Right now Ruth can't start either our Honda and Nissan as they are both pull start. That is not good if something happens to me. We already sat one place for about 5 days as I was hurt and had a hard time starting the outboard myself.

Get the long shaft electric start and don't look back, you will be happy,

Sum

Our Trips to...

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
User avatar
dvideohd
First Officer
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:16 pm
Location: Richardson, TX; Galveston, TX; Dana Point, CA

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by dvideohd »

Lots of people have ordered from Online Outboards. I did - Nissan 9.9, 25" shaft, electric start with generator.

I ordered based on other people's experience. worked well for me...

My reason for electric start was same as yours... anyone can start - other than me... ALSO.... we are thinking of how to start the motor in the WORST 5% of conditions... that's when it matters the most... adverse weather and currents - potentially impaired conditions says the rest....

Tohatsu is "local" for me, as well.

I have a 5 hp Tohatsu to sell - we just wanted a bigger, electric start motor.... Tohatsu makes a LOT of other people's motors as well.

--jr
User avatar
dvideohd
First Officer
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:16 pm
Location: Richardson, TX; Galveston, TX; Dana Point, CA

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by dvideohd »

Duane....

I follow your electric experience... On the 26D (or 'S), it seems that an electric would fit comfortably on the opposite side as the outboard. It could be a mounting plate issue.....

As Sum brought up.... for safety reasons, we like the idea that "anyone in the boat" can start up the motor..... like in adverse conditions - or if you happen to fall overboard or something... If the outboard got "fouled" - that is another reason, I guess....

--jr
User avatar
Catigale
Site Admin
Posts: 10421
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
Contact:

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Catigale »

Last time I scanned the websites, Tohatsu motors were coming in about 15% lighter than the same HP in Nissan in this range - curious,since I thought they were all made by Tohatsu..

worth researching though
User avatar
Duane Dunn, Allegro
Admiral
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
Contact:

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro »

Dvideohd,

Actually, if you were to switch to the system I am designing, you would have no mounting issues at all. The motor would be integrated into your rudder and you would gain back both sides of your transom.

Of course there is no starting issue at all with electric propulsion. You just turn on the switch and advance the throttle. In addition, there is no noise, smoke, gas fumes, fouled plugs, oil changes, cursing that the motor won't start, or any of the other things that go along with small gas outboards. Just clean, quiet power when in all electric mode.
Hardcrab
Captain
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: "Cease-fire", White 05 M, 90hp, Boggy Bayou, Niceville, FL

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Hardcrab »

Duane Dunn Allegro,
Interesting idea you have there.
Have you totalled up the weights of your mod?
How does it compare with the bigger outboards as far as weight goes?

As far as the smaller outboards, does anybody know what's the smallest hp one can buy that uses a remote throttle, electric start, and steering linkage hook up?
User avatar
Sumner
Admiral
Posts: 2375
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:20 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26S
Location: SE Utah
Contact:

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Sumner »

Hardcrab wrote:......As far as the smaller outboards, does anybody know what's the smallest hp one can buy that uses a remote throttle, electric start, and steering linkage hook up?
There might not be a smallest with something like this...

Image

http://powertiller.net/

We are getting 9.8 HP that has a remote option, but I think I can make something for a lot less.....hopefully :? ,

Sum

Our Trips to..

Our Mac Pages

MacGregor Venture Links
Last edited by Hamin' X on Fri May 07, 2010 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Repaired Links
User avatar
Catigale
Site Admin
Posts: 10421
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
Contact:

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Catigale »

Hardcrab

In the Tohatsu line, 8Hp is the first electric start model, and 9.8 HP is the first model where you can get electric start and remote throttle/steering

...and in a twist, you cant buy a remote steering model motor as an end user - must be installed by a qualified installer onsite. There is a path around this, viz, buying the motor as tiller steering and then buying the remote steering upgrade kit separately.

Other models may vary, but you will run into the same install issue at the similar HP levels.
Hardcrab
Captain
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: "Cease-fire", White 05 M, 90hp, Boggy Bayou, Niceville, FL

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Hardcrab »

Thanks for the info.
I didn't know those options were available for engines smaller than about the 25hp range.
User avatar
dvideohd
First Officer
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:16 pm
Location: Richardson, TX; Galveston, TX; Dana Point, CA

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by dvideohd »

Duane....

I do like your solution... In the general theme of paranoid is good.... might be a good idea to keep a spare rudder somewhere on board as well- in case of problems....

I DO LIKE Electric.. but I also keep in mind that there are TWO elements of "Green" to keep in mind...

First is the Carbon Footprint issue assoicated with product life cycles.... Electric power means batteries... Lead Acid is a VERY POOR CHOICE from this standpoint... For Electric Bikes, we use a number of 200 life charges for Lead Acid - and 2000 life charges for Li-Iron batteries... that is not the simple answer, either... So there is a USE PROFILE assoicated with battery and recycle life, too... Making your deep discharge marine battery last for 5+ years makes the product worth while... a Bike Battery that lasts 6 months or a year - and has recycle issues.. is not a good solution.....

Second is the use aspect... Electric is clean and quiet - but that's in the use... Generation is usually with coal - or natural gas.... and that is 35-40% efficient... the wires it runs over from plant to your home - is another 7.5% loss... then you have charging and use losses... it all adds up... Gasoline - that has it's use issues as well....

************
On the whole -I still think that light electric is very optimal for getting the boat in and out of a slip.

I do hole that at some point Tohatsu makes a hybrid system... Li-Iron battery and light electric... that's still years off.. but I know Tohatsu must be thinking here already...

--jerry
User avatar
Trouts Dream
Captain
Posts: 663
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:10 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Calgary, Alberta--1997 26X--Yamaha 90HP 2 Stroke....grunt, grunt

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Trouts Dream »

What about a paddle boat style powering. That has a small carbon footprint, except for the beef I need to eat to maintain my energy :wink:
rgranger
Deckhand
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:31 am
Sailboat: Venture 2-24

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by rgranger »

Well I caved in on the electric option and purchased this OB on ebay for $569

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engine ... es/173.jpg

I also got the B & S 900W portable generator for $369. So the total for a 5 HP and all of the electricity I should need came to $938. I guess not a bad deal compared to a Honda with an alternator.

C-ya on the water.

r
User avatar
Catigale
Site Admin
Posts: 10421
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
Contact:

Re: Propulsion Pros & Cons

Post by Catigale »

are you in fresh water ? We have hashed this out before but to recap the BS line is pretty much a fresh water only solution...
Post Reply