MAC 36

A forum for discussing topics relating to older MacGregor/Venture sailboats.
J1234
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Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

steve-nacra58-MAC36 wrote:Mast head floathttp://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?m ... emId=11941
Ahoy mates one and all,

There it is. Thanks again for the info. Do you know if a skin of glass is wrapped around the float or is it just a moulded piece? I'm going to owe my soul by the time this is all over. 8) I think that I might design something that may reduce windage and be a better system for the mast head float. I need a couple of days to think it over and then I'll run it by everyone for discussion.

Today, we get a little bit deeper in the muck but once it is all said and done, we will come out on the other side dirty and tired, but alive. Like I always say, every day above ground or floating on water is a good day. I have yet to find any imperial information for this design and hopefully Steve or someone else will come through, so here are the results.

The design carries a single spreader approximately half way up the mast dividing the column into two panels. The normal distance above the deck is 50% -52%. Regardless of length, this approximates 10 degrees for a shroud to mast angle so this assumption is used. Also, the lower shrouds bear 60% of the load on single spreaders and the uppers bear 40%. The dolphins striker, well, everyone knows what that does. This leads to certain acceptable rules and guidelines for calculating the loads paths and tracing them down to the hull. They are that:

1. Double lower fore/aft spreaders should be equal in size.
2. One double lower shroud is designed to bear the entire lower shroud load,
3. The head stay should be greater than or equal to the largest shroud size,
4. The back stay should be equal to the size of the head stay.
5. Mast loads are always equal and opposite.

With this in mind the traverse sail forces and compression/torsion loads arecalculated:

Mainsail: This calculates to 23837 f/lb
Foresail: This calculates to 19286 f/lb
Genoa: This calculates to 3948 f/lb
Apparent Velocity : This calculates to 3.16 mph
Mast compression: This calculates to 33,376 f/lb
Boom Torsion Load: This calculates to 3803 f/lb

Mast Ixx Min: 10.62in^4 - 442cm^4
Mast Ixx Eff: 22.29in^4 - 928cm^4
Mast Iyy Min: 10.62 in^4 - 442cm^4
Mast Iyy Eff: 12.74in^4 - 530cm^4
To put this in perspective, a Z701 US Spar mast would do the job.

Boom Ixx Min: 0 .53in^4 - 22cm^4
Boom Ixx Eff: 1.11in^4 - 46cm^4
Boom Iyy Min: 0.38 in^4 - 16cm^4
Boom Iyy Eff: 0.46in^4 - 19cm^4

To put this in perspective, a Z160 Us Spar boom would do the job.
Now we have some sections that we can compare with, and if unable to corroborate, then we have a good idea of where to begin. Obviously, it would be prudent to provide specific measurements and weights to mast manufacturers and request their recommendations before purchasing.

For simplicity purposes, we know there are 3 cross beams, one of which carries the mast compression loads. This by the way was also genius. These can also be designed to different levels of strength such as cantilever, simply supported, load at center or equal loads at ends etc, and sections also may vary such as circles, squares, ellipses etc. The design uses a cylinder and it is probably designed to simply supported. The manual said it has 6-5/8" (outside diameter) tubes, so knowing the loads, we can solve for the inside diameter and we can then complete the triangle.

Center Beam Ixy Eff: 36.082^4 - 1502cm^4
6-5/8" OD x 5-7/8"ID - 3/8" wall
Fore/Aft Beam Ixy Eff: 25.475^4 - 1060cm^4
6-5/8" OD x 6-1/8"ID - 1/4" wall

I think that my safety factors could be close because these sure appear to be seriously heavy duty for their span. Anyway, best to be safe than sorry. I think the beams on board are 1/8" walls for the fore/aft tubes and 1/4" for the center tube if my memory serves me well, but I just don't know if someone changed them out correctly or just decided to negate the designers safety factor and purchase the cheaper smaller wall thicknesses.

Lower Shrouds: These calculate to 9/32" and they should be tensioned to 389#
Upper Shrouds: These calculate to 7/32" and they should be tensioned to 864#
Lower fore/aft Shrouds: These calculate to 9/32" and they should be tensioned to 518#
Forestay: Calculates to 9/32" and should be tensioned to 648#
Backstays: These calculate to 9/32" and they should be tensioned to 432#.
Wow, these also are heavy duty wires unless my safety factors are indicative of my enthusiastic will to survive

Spend the extra $160.00 and go all 9/32" and carry only 1 replacement wire diameter and associated fittings and relax knowing that the rig has been upgraded for offshore use. It does however add weight. One thing is for certain…that baby is going to be in a blow and when the skipper pulls his head out of the sand, he is going to find a stick standing there. Based on these loads, the clevis pins are 1/2" diameters, and that at least agrees with the manual.

Okay. There we are so far. If anyone happens to have first hand knowlege of any of the above scantlings without having to go outside and measure it to confirm, I would appreciate your input. If it is off, I appreciate that as well. Blocks, winches and mainsheet will be next. The running rigging will be based on the block loads depending on the deck design so sheet diameters will not be called out and is subject to the different deck layouts.

Talk later. I gotta run,. Literally. 8)

Whoops... had to edit. I mixed up the lower and upper shroud designations so I fixed them to reflect the correct diameters. The diameters did not change, only that they were asigned to the incorrect shroud, upper or lower. It is now accurate. Sorry.
J1234
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Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Ahoy to all,

Dammmnnn, so quiet in here you can hear a mouse pi$$ on cotton. :?

Today, I we have the calculated loads for decj gear such as the blocks for running rigging, for the main, jib and genoa at their respective angles to the sheets or their deflection angles. This was a little tiring and monotonous. It should be noted that these figures are as mentioned in prior posts, calculated for wind forces generated at 32 knots. I have also calculated the mainsheet and winch requirements.

Defl Main Jib Genoa
30º 679# 550# 2465#
45º 993# 803# 3603#
60º 1306# 1057# 4741#
75º 1594# 1290# 5784#
90º 1842# 1490# 6684#
105º 2077# 1681# 7538#
120º 2260# 1829# 8201#
135º 2417# 1955# 8770#
150º 2521# 2040# 9150#
160º 2574# 2082# 9339#
180º 2613# 2114# 2281#

Woah, the genoa sheets have to be designed to withstand 9339 pounds if the sheet is ever taken to 160 degrees. To compare, 9/32" 1x19 wire is rated to break at 9400#. Long runs with minimal deflection is imperative.

Main winch: The main requires a #42

Jib Winch: The jib requires a #32

Genoa Winch: The genoa requires a #74.

The boom mainsheet lengths that are required are as follows:

End Boom - 4:1 - 119'
Mid Boom- 4:1 - 125'

End Boom - 6:1 - 68'
Mid Boom- 6:1 - 86'

Special note should be made that the owner's manual points out that enough sheet length should be set so that the mast can be stepped and un-stepped.

Okay. That's all for now. Sooo, nothing written thus far can be confirmed even by memory? I'll keep it going. I hope I'm not violating any moderation rules by being the only one speaking, writing, in here? :| :| Tonight I'll work on ground tackle and some deck gear as well.

Thanks for reading, if anyone is reading I suppose. If anything can be challenged or corroborated, that would be great.
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Catigale
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Re: MAC 36

Post by Catigale »

Hold on there SQRT (1,522,756)

9000# on a genny sheet ??? Even a big blue boat winch is going to double gear down at 50:1 advantage or lower - thats giving you a 200# load at the winch handle - about 4x what you can reasonable handle at least...
J1234
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Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Catigale wrote:Hold on there SQRT (1,522,756)

9000# on a genny sheet ??? Even a big blue boat winch is going to double gear down at 50:1 advantage or lower - thats giving you a 200# load at the winch handle - about 4x what you can reasonable handle at least...
:D :D :D
I almost broke a rib with the square root comparison. Shoot..at first I didn't get it then when it hit, oh man, the tears are still running.

Okay. Let me see. You are of course, in a sense, correct. What I meant to say is the block instead of sheet, but we'll go over it so it is clear. The 9000# sounds huge right? Well, that was my first impression as well and it is huge. If you set up a block as deck gear and it is attached in such a manner that the angle is 160 degrees or will be 160 degrees, it will experience the load above noted.

Let's go over the math.
SA -Genoa: 1074ft
WV-Wind Speed: 32Knots
LA- 160 Degree Angle Load Allowance: 197%
SA x (32^2 x .00431) x LA = 1074 x (32^2 x 0.00431) * 1.97 = 9337# The block will experience that load. This is ofcourse at 32 knots and 160 degrees on 1074ft^2 which is almost impossible to accomplish without some random act of madness.

Now to clarify the load on the sheet, the part that you point out, which is basically calculated the same without the angle allowance. Therefore, linearly and without any bends, the sheet would experience SA x (32^2 x .00431) = 1074 x (32^2 x 0.00431)= 4740#. That is the load that the wind places on that genoa and it calculates to 4.41#ft^2 at 32 knots on 1074 ft^2 of sail area. Also, mind that it is the load, the sheet would be designed to a safety factor of at least 1.5 in my mind and that already takes her to a sheet with a breaking of at least, 7000#, so it isn't so far fetched. Well, the idea of a Genoa of that size in 32 knots is far fetched, but that is the design criteria if she is to be category B, offshore rated.

What would I say is more reasonable? Time to reef. To keep it short, the same block would require 2051# and the loads on the sheet, linear without bend would be 1044.5#. Rope will lose significant strength at higher angles so the rule of thumb is never exceed 120 degrees because then diameters must be increased significantly to recover the reductions of strength.

I hope that clears up any confusion I may have caused. Sorry.

Thanks for the observation and if you find anything else, please point it out. BY the way, I can also be the cube root of (1,879,080,904), but your's is much better. :D :D That was hysterical.
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Catigale
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Re: MAC 36

Post by Catigale »

You're welcome, 10011010010

....I ve got half of Schrodingers cat that bets I got that last one right....
J1234
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:54 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Catigale wrote:You're welcome, 10011010010

....I ve got half of Schrodingers cat that bets I got that last one right....
Hmmm...

Don't collect just yet. What are the odds? I may want to get in on the action. Besides the openhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is only...well, lets skip the lecture and leave it at that since this is far from sub atomic particles.! :wink:

Anyway, I found another error, so I am correcting it here. It is for the blocks at 180 degrees for the Genoa, which I had calculated for 16 knots instead of 32, so here is the acurate number.

Defl Main Jib Genoa
180º 2613 2114 9481
SkiDeep2001
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Re: MAC 36

Post by SkiDeep2001 »

:o DOH :!: :wink: I'm not sure what happened officer, I was just explaining some simple mathematical equations re: my Mac36 and his head just suddenly exploded. :P Rob 8)
J1234
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Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

SkiDeep2001 wrote::o DOH :!: :wink: I'm not sure what happened officer, I was just explaining some simple mathematical equations re: my Mac36 and his head just suddenly exploded. :P Rob 8)
Hello Rob,
LOL ROFLMFAO!!!
Oh dammn, I can't take all this laughing anymore. :D :D
Everybody please stop it. :D :D
Oh, oh, oh, 911, 911.

I take it that my layman explanations may not be well taken? Or could it be that I'm working too fast and the sponge isn't sucking it up fast enough? I know I should slow down, I just figured that someone may recognize something and say, Hey, that's right, or in the case of the half dead/half living cat, Hey, too much wind in this sail for the winch!!! :P

Oh man, this is way too funny. I lost all train of thought and now need to figure out where the hull I am, what the hull I was doing and where the hull I need to be and go to do something there.

Going home now.
steve-nacra58-MAC36
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Re: MAC 36

Post by steve-nacra58-MAC36 »

On my boat the mast is 42' 9.5" The section is oval . Since masthead lights and vhf antenna are mounted on top I think the measurements are 5.25" X 6.5". There is a 1" external slide track mounted to the mast for the main sail.
On the mast are two #7 Arco single speed halyard winches. In the center of the rear beam there are two winches. Arco 40 two speed and a Barient 22. The original boat only had one winch in this location. The genoa track is just forward of the main beam. I would not think you could even get an angle of 90 deg. on the turning block.
J1234
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Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

steve-nacra58-MAC36 wrote:On my boat the mast is 42' 9.5" The section is oval . Since masthead lights and vhf antenna are mounted on top I think the measurements are 5.25" X 6.5". There is a 1" external slide track mounted to the mast for the main sail.
On the mast are two #7 Arco single speed halyard winches. In the center of the rear beam there are two winches. Arco 40 two speed and a Barient 22. The original boat only had one winch in this location. The genoa track is just forward of the main beam. I would not think you could even get an angle of 90 deg. on the turning block.


Hello to all,
Now that's what i'm talking about. :)
I have the masthead components for instruments but have to install them.
My mast section is also oval.
External track is 1 inch, yes sir.
Winches are way off on their rated numbers. I don't know the load capacity on those winches, but I will look them up and advise if the calculated winches are close. I only have 3 winches, plus two off the boat,
Mast height sounds correct.
The track for the genny is just like mine and no way will it see 90 degrees. I have to walk back to the bows for that.
This is all excellent news. Thanks for the info. Based on this, I would think the mast is original and will need a good survey if it is to be kept. Conversely, it can be said that if failure was in its future, it would have happened because it has stood the test of time. 8) I'll know when it is dismantled.

It's great to see that things are looking better and better all the time. I finally stopped laughing. The admiral would look at me with great concern after I just popped out with laughter, which was caused by someone and someone else here whom will remain un-named to protect identity. Here are some more calculations and information. Today, we address ground tackle. Quite subjective, it may be a bit on the heavy side, but, I speak by experience when I say that a skipper that sleeps well, does so only because he knows that his prized possession will be where he parked it when he wakes up. It is always good to know that there is a massive amount of empirical data out there so that you can just pick and choose from a chart, but, is it what you need and if it is, how do you know what the working envelope might be? We are calculating for neutralizing loads, so it is the skipper whom chooses anchor form or design for a specific bottom.

To calculate for the anchor, frontal windage and wetted areas must be estimated and then they are used with the displacement to establish wetted and windage forces generated by 16, 32 and 48 knots, for calm, normal and storm conditions respectively. Frontal areas have been roughly estimated.

Windage Area 50 ft^2
Wetted Section Area 9 ft^2
Wetted Force 21,607#
Windage Force - 16Kn - 55#
Windage Force - 32Kn - 219#
Windage Force - 48Kn - 493#

Anchor Weights:
Up to 16 Knots - Use an anchor of 11#, or 1# for every 392.5# of displacement. (Lunch)
16 to 32 Knots - Use an anchor of 23#, or 1# for every 187.8# of displacement (Working)
48+ Knots - Use an anchor of 46#, or 1# for every 93.9# of displacement. (Storm)
Don't be led to choose according to "boat size" loads are not based on boat size.

Nylon/Chain Rode: Use 41 feet of chain and 77 feet of nylon +/-. The rope diameter should be approximately 1/16" for every 500#'s of displacement. Anything below 3/8" is going to be really hard on the hands but excessive over-sizing is not good either because then the elastic dampening properties are stiffened up and the nylon won't perform as designed.

An all chain rode is recommended for areas where coral may be encountered and there should be at least 8-10 times the deepest draft expected for anchoring. Although I calculated the catenary tensions at different scopes, I will not present all the data but instead provide the important results for an all chain rode anchored at 0.5 fathoms at low tide. For me, anything greater than 1 foot of water beneath the keel at low tide defeats the purpose of a multihull, so I used 10 times a depth of 0.5 fathoms for a total chain length of 30 feet. I am differentiating between an all chain rode and a chain/nylon rode because their weights will be different for calculating the windlass:

Windlass: For Chain/Nylon Rode it should pull at least 378#
Windlass: For Chain Rode it should pull at least 340#
I consider a windlass a luxury for the Mac36 and not required at all. Chances are pretty good that any winch will be able to retrieve the anchor. If an "automatic" retrieval system is really required, forgo the weight and expense and create yet more flotation on board with one of these buoy's below and that is the end of that story:

http://www.fishing-catalog.com/other%20 ... r_ball.htm

Catenary's Results:
Scope X Y LOA Angle Ver Ten Ttl Ten
10:1 30.04 3.00 30.2 11.4 22.4 113.7
9:1 27.03 3.00 27.3 12.6 20.2 92.6
8:1 24.03 3.00 24.3 14.1 18.0 73.7
7:1 21.03 3.00 21.3 16.0 15.8 57.1
6:1 18.02 3.00 18.4 18.6 13.6 42.6
5:1 15.02 3.00 15.4 22.1 11.4 30.4

Scope Holding Power (Increase):
5:1 - Baseline - 0
6:1 - 40%
7:1 - 88%
8:1 - 143%
9:1 - 205%
10:1 - 274%

Holding Power
10:1 - 101%
5:1 - 76%

Pay out a scope of 10:1 for sound sleep and minimum storm survival. Below 5:1 should be used for quick lunches in relatively shallow areas for limited amounts of time or with lots of eyes on deck during daylight hours in fair weather conditions. At 2:1, holding power is down to 30%, pretty much useless. Everything between 5:1 and 7:1, maybe 8:1, can be used for working scopes with the higher scopes being used for heavier wind and current and or less visibility or for extended periods on the hook.

Okay, the next time we'll look at anchoring out at sea. I'll calculate for a sea anchor, and a cone drogue. Does anyone want to see information for a series drogue or should I skip it?

Thanks for reading.
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grady
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Re: MAC 36

Post by grady »

This should clear up any questions on this post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o
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Re: MAC 36

Post by Catigale »

I love the brake rotor on the table in front
steve-nacra58-MAC36
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Re: MAC 36

Post by steve-nacra58-MAC36 »

The mast is also filled with foam.
J1234
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Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

grady wrote:This should clear up any questions on this post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o
:D :D :D
Awwww dammm, you gotta stop, you gotta stop. That was pretty good. You know, there are people that have actually done this crap for a living so we can enjoy them safely without having a shuttle land on our head or have a boat drift away. LOL. :D :D Hee, hee, hee. Alright, technobabble number two is on its way, I wonder if I can write it as good as he can speak it. His face was so straight. Its like a foreign language. Now I know why parents fight about who will help junior do his homework when he comes home talking all that crap. Hee, hee,hee,hee. :D

Oh dam, come to think of it, now I know why Texas stole Chile's flag and motto. Way toooo funny. Tee Hee, hee. You cracked me all up. It was so that the Caddo Indians can teach them to say "Teyshan" (Texan) meaning "friendship", get it, friend+ship ROFLMFAO!!! :D :P
steve-nacra58-MAC36 wrote:The mast is also filled with foam.
Hello Steve,

Actually I didn't even think to look for it. I will have to say that the same may be true for mine, but if it isnt, then it isn't a big deal, I hope. Thanks for that heads up, I'll check it since I'll be flying down at the start of August.

Oh man, I love this place. We should get incorporated as a libertarian State and declare independence. Hee, hee, haw,haw. :D

Everyone, all my bretheren and their loved and hated ones, enjoy your weekend, if there is a weekend wherever you're from. :). It's going to be hard for me not to smile.

Thanks for breaking it up.
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Re: MAC 36

Post by SkiDeep2001 »

Ooh, I have to get me one of those 'Turbo Encapulators' :!: LOL 8) Rob
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