Boat registration fees. Loran C

[Mark Prouty]

My Mac costs me $24.24/year for the honor of residing in Wisconsin not including trailer registration fees. How does Wisconsin stand in comparison to other places?

How do we compare to powerboats?

Is there anything involved with sailing that would not be covered by these fees. For example, navigation bouys, bridge attendants or public piers? In other words does the public subsidize any part of our sport beyond the fees we pay?

Anybody still use Loran C? Is that system still in use?

[richandlori]

In California I pay $14 a year to register the Mac and I think about $15 for trailer registration, but the trailer reg is good for several years. That is CHEAP!

As a general tax payer in any state, I don't think it is right to say that anyone "subsidize" us. In fact it could be stated that by simply buying the boat and paying sales tax, we are subsidizing, the folks that don't buy big ticket items!

When I go to a lake in CA-I pay, when I get a slip-I pay, when I buy general supplies and gear for the Mac-I pay the sales tax!

Believe me...we all pay, even if the bill doesn't specifically say "charges for owning a Boat, we all pay.

In 2004, I started saving every receipt and started added up all the fees, taxes, surcharges, ect. I intended to keep it going all year and see how much I am really paying in taxes as a percentage of income, but by Arpil, I was already SICK and geve up.

There are those who say, "you should be happy to pay taxes and it is the cost of living in the USA". Some of that statement is true, but 50%.....that is a bit out of control. and by the time you add it all up: sales, income, property, fees, surcharges.....if you are a top earner in the US, you are Paying............

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Washington is not nearly so kind.

I get hit with $98 for the boat, $79 of which is 'excise tax' and a $12.50 'other' fee.

The trailer adds $45, $33 of which is that wonderful 'other' fee.

People up here are still arguing about getting the portion of our quite stiff gas tax collected at marine facilities to go for boating improvements rather than more asphalt.

Luckily, other than fuel, oil, and an annual set of plugs, this is the only non-toy boating related costs we have. We won't discuss what the mods and improvements cost each year.

[Pouw Geuzebroek]

Anybody still use Loran C? Is that system still in use?

Well it is still alive and kicking Mark. In fact they are upgrading all Loran-C stations over the World. If you are interested in this matter, here is some in depth info about the Eurofix navigation system http://www.eurofix.tudelft.nl/ and her is some info on modernization of the US stations http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/loran/modernization.htm
I am not a Loran-C user though, but I may use Eurofix if it becomes availlable it looks very interesting. I bet we need new equipment for that.

[Mark Prouty]

Anybody still use Loran C? Is that system still in use?

Well it is still alive and kicking Mark. In fact they are upgrading all Loran-C stations over the World.

Why would they be doing that when GPS is accurate to within 1-5 meters?

The normal navigation operational mode of Loran-C is preserved which gives the Eurofix user, next to accurate DGPS positions, an improved navigation reliability. If either GPS or Loran-C might fail, the other system still provides position information, however at a reduced accuracy of about 100 300 meters.

Guess we need backup.

[Pouw Geuzebroek]

Yeah Mark, must be a government project. Nobody seems to understand why we need this. Although for Car navigation systems I can imagine it to be handy, you need more accuracy when deciding where to turn left, in a dence city. But at sea, don't think so.

[Mark Prouty]

Probably a subsidiary of Haliburtan got a no bid contract.

[Dominic]

Loran C is about to make a comeback.... Orginally developed by the Americans during/after WW11, it fell into the doldrums after the event of GPS and lack of development. If I understand it correctly, Loran C will be able to provide coastal navigation to an accuracy greater than GPS (including selective discrepancies in the GPS signal).

[Chip Hindes]

If I understand it correctly, Loran C will be able to provide coastal navigation to an accuracy greater than GPS

The accuracy of GPS already exceeds that of most charts. Knowing your own location to an accuracy greater than that of the stuff you're trying to avoid hitting seems to me of limited value.

The backup system for my GPS is a second GPS.

[richandlori]

True, small handhelp GPS units are so cheap these days, why would I want to have two different systems?

[Frank C]

* In California I pay $14 a year to register the Mac and I think about $15 for trailer registration, but the trailer reg is good for several years. That is CHEAP!
* paying sales tax ...
* I pay, when I get a slip
* I pay, when I buy general supplies ... sales tax!

And unfortunately Rich, you haven't yet discovered all the taxes you owe in California, and I'm a little puzzled as to why.

You'll also pay personal property tax once your county tax collector discovers that you have that boat. Usually any new boat owner is reported to the county by the selling dealer. You will be paying another $200 per year, $140 on the hull, plus another $60 on the average 50hp outboard.

Personal property tax is a percentage of original assessed value (purchase cost) and it depreciates by a fixed percentage each year thereafter. Everyone's familiar with real property taxes ... personal property tax (in CA) is now assessed only on:
- business personal property (furniture & fixtures)
- over-the-road vehicles (collected annually by DMV)
- AND, vessels (collected by the county assessor).

If you place your boat into any marina storage, either recurring monthly slip or dry storage, they will report its existance to the county assessor even if the selling dealer did not. Also, I believe the DMV who issue your annual vessel certificate will report your ownership to the county assessor. It may take more than a year for them to find you due to "governmental efficiencies" but I think they'll charge you penalties anyway.

Keep it in your back yard, and change your on-line identity - RIGHT NOW!
Don't shoot the messenger!!

[waternwaves]

Loran C does not have the capability to exceed the accuracy of GPS.

The DGPS and Loran Augment are special adapations for particular locations....

Much of the accuracy of the the GPS system has to do with the signal processing algorithms, number of available satellites, and statistical analysis performed by the gps receivers themselves..

several other worry about he fact that the GPS system is controlled by the US government..and can be skewed based on military needs and conditions. These same brainless salamanders believe that if a LOran C ranging system is operated by other countries that this would prevent skew and provide a useable signal under their control......lol.

Within any theater of operations....... I fully well rely on the US military too be able to mess with whatever sig int and ranging communications may be using....lol

Loran C will still have the system difficulties of a larger antenna system.., it is more affected by local geography and geology, and less resolution..

Other surface located loran systems are being proposed... but they will not operate at Loran C freqs..... which was orginally selected for its planetary surface hugging over the horizon capablilities..... Stay tuned...

The Europeans have even selected a frequency band and orbital slots for their own sat nav systems....however they have not agreed among themselves among competing ideas...

So for the near future.... GPS/DGPS is the game for accuracy and repeatability albeit at uncle sams whim.....

[Dominic]

Sorry, used wrong verb - rather than 'accuracy' I should have used something like 'trustworthy' or 'confidence enhancing'.

The following is a quote from a recent debate on the topic from the UK based Practical Boat Owner forum:

" Found on http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001280.html and thought all of you might be interested by this!

US TO SHUT DOWN GPS IN CRISIS?
The White House has completed yet another piece of its never-ending review of the Clinton-era 1996 National Space Policy.

U.S. SPACE-BASED POSITIONING, NAVIGATION, AND TIMING POLICY, signed by the President on 8 December 2004, "establishes guidance and implementation actions for space-based positioning, navigation, and timing programs, augmentations, and activities for U.S. national and homeland security, civil, scientific, and commercial purposes."

In other words its a GPS policy, and pretty aggressive one at that.

The policy, which also comes in a classified flavor, reportedly resulted in a directive to the Secretary of Defense (SecDef) to develop plans to shut down civil use of U.S. GPS signals in certain emergencies and to deny advesaries access to foreign space-based satellite navigation services, such as the European Union's Galileo system.

Does anybody remember when Washington claimed that Galileo was unnecessary, because we would never shut GPS down?

The Europeans have been buzzing about what the U.S. might do to Galileo in a crisis. Publication of a new Air Force Counterspace Doctrine fueled these fears, after Peter Teets asked a rather provocative question in the foreward:

'What will we do ten years from now when American lives are put at risk because an adversary chooses to leverage the global positioning system or perhaps the Galileo constellation to attack American forces with precision?'

Comments like this have a way of being taken the "wrong way." An ugly row recently erupted after a British paper reported that European participants at a Royal United Services Institute conference thought they heard U.S. officials threaten "irreversible action" to deny hostile powers access to Galileo in a crisis--although other participants disputed that any threat was issued.

Some of the dispute can, I think, be traced to a difference in thinking about satellite navigation. Whereas Americans tend to think of GPS as a military application that civilians are permitted to use (reflecting the military origins of GPS), much of the rest of the world sees it as a global public utility. I suspect we'll be hearing a lot about this policy by Galileo's supporters."

Because there is an American Military CPS policy, in Europe there is a concern about putting putting all one's navigational needs in one basket hence the development of Galileo, although, I think it was recently agreed that The American Military could have access to switching off the system if needs exist. A lot of European countries/governments are suspicious of GPS and wish to provide a local alternative hence the appeal of Loran C if GPS should 'go down'.

However, on a slightly lighter note, from the same forums, I quote observations from an even earlier system "Decca was very accurate & was very easy to use. The best bit about Decca though was two ships navigating in reduced vis/fog/mist/falling snow etc etc , going down the same position line, but in opposite directions!! Definitely brown trouser stuff & no mistake! It used to happen a lot on harbour approaches, if one of the position lines was in a convenient place & direction. A little like a stone age edition of GPS Waypoints, where everyone is heading to the same spot in the oggin!"

GPS is undoubtable the most accurate and convenient system and is here to stay and I too have two sets on board as a backup system but I also practice pilotage skills near land and keep my charts up to date enroute - old habits die hard.

[Chip Hindes]

Having been in the artillery in a previous life, from a military viewpoint it is impossible to overestimate the value of knowing exactly where we are while at the same time denying such knowledge to the bad guys.

From the other side, I appreciate the fact that my government has made available to me, a pleasure boater, the ability to do the same. I also fully understand that there are situations wherein it might be necessary to suspend that ability.

In fact, as the father of an active duty US Marine, I would be both surprised and unhappy if there weren't the ability to do so.

I would be equally surprised if there weren't agreements, military contingency plans, or both, for "suspending" Loran.

[dclark]

I got confused on the trailer reqistration a couple years ago when after paying I was sent a tag with the letter PTR (I think that's what it says) instead of the current year. My understanding is that in CA there is no longer an annual registration but instead you pay once and receive a permenant trailer registration.

I pay a small fee every other year to keep the boat registered. I forget the amount, but it's not much. I remember thinking with whatever it costs them to process it, it hardly seems worth their while.