Sailing a 26X compared to the old 26D?

[rickj514]

Hi Everyone,

Sorry if this is an old topic... I'm in the market for a 26X and have been doing a lot of reading on the Internet about how well or poorly it sails and motors. Seems that people either hate this boat or love it, and everyone seems to have a strong opinion on it. I do understand that the design is a compromise and no boat can do everything well, but that is actually what attracts me to the boat. (I also ride a sport-touring motorcycle, similarly a "compromise" design.)

Back on the mid-90s I had a 26D Mac, the old Classic with a daggerboard, with a 9.9 HP Honda motor on it. I really enjoyed the boat and was impressed with how well it sailed. Used it mainly in San Diego bay, but also took it to Catalina several times. My only sailing experience before that was sailing small catamarans, so I wasn't a real experienced sailor. The Mac, however, seemed to hold its own as compared to other sailboats of that size, and I've often regretted selling the boat.

Now to my question. How does the 26X compare in terms of sailing to the 26D? Based on what I'm reading it sounds like the 26D is a better sailor than the 26X, but is the difference substantial? I'm clearly going to enjoy the overall capabilities of the boat, trailering, motoring, taking grandkids out on it, etc., but am I going to be real disappointed in how it sails?

Comments much appreciated.

Rick

[mastreb]

Hi Rick,

The 26X (and M) are far better at powering and not quite as good at sailing as the 26D. They are compromise boats, but if you ride a sport-touring bike you know exactly why you like "dual purpose" equipment: It's cheaper, it gives you more options in a situation, and you're clever enough to deal with the challenges caused by it's dual nature. (I ride a ZX-14 with a raised windshield and full bags so I know exactly where you're at

Motorboaters don't like Macs because they're top heave in the water, they spray a lot, and they frankly aren't nearly as fast as a skiff with a gigantic motor. If you don't want to sail, don't get a Mac.

Sailors typically don't like anything without a full keel (owners of sailing dinghys and cats typically have no problem with Macs). I came from sailing a full keel boat and I'll tell you straight that a Mac takes a lot more sailing skill and vigilance--You're not going to raise sails, go broad to the wind, tie of the tiller, and crack a beer. These boats are for people who want to sail the boat, not for people who want to lounge around on deck while the boat sails itself.

They are what they are: Powersailors. It's a different category of boat than a sailboat or a motorboat. I personally would have been perfectly fine with a retractable full keel and a 9hp mooring motor as I don't use the speed but I didn't have the $80K that a Hake would have cost me.

In my opinion the best thing about these boats is that they are exceptionally well designed and well thought out. They are inexpensively built, but that doesn't seem to be a problem and they're quite tolerant of things being out of tolerance. They're very easy to work on and modify.

My single biggest issue with performance is that the rudders and steering are too sloppy in my opinion--a compromise caused partly by the requirement that the same wheel move the motor and the rudders and exacerbated by going too cheap on the rudder brackets and cable steering system. A hydraulic system, tight rudder brackets, and deeper, wider rudders would have mitigated rather than exacerbated the sloppy steering. There are simple mods to help fix this, but I really do think the factory should engineer better rudders with a bracket that stops the steering at 30 degrees when the rudders are down to prevent stalls from over steering.

Trailering is a hassle. Moving the mast from the bow pulpit to the mast step is a giant hassle, and somewhat dangerous. Raising the mast is really no big deal with the mast raising winch. From leaving my house to being in the water is a two hour endeavor because my boat is at a storage lot 15m north of my house and 45m north of my favorite harbor. It's another two hours to go from dock to home. That's half the day for a sail, so our typical routine is to put the boat in the water on Thursday and take it out Sunday evening (using guest slips).

But it's less of a hassle than spending $800/mo. in San Diego for a slip, and far more enjoyable than not having a boat, and that's the bottom line.

Matt

[rickj514]

Thanks for your comments, Matt.

Due to cash concerns I was originally looking at getting another Mac 26 Classic, but I'm looking at a 26X that I may be able to get for a pretty good price. If we can work out a deal, I'd rather opt for the better motoring capabilities of the X. Otherwise, I may be looking at an older Classic again.

I agree with all your comments about compromising, etc. and am OK with that. It's the nature of Macs. I'm mainly curious about how much the sailing difference is, or details on the differences in the sailing aspects of the two boats. With a sailing background in high performance catamarans, I definitely don't mind that the Macs require a bit more input / vigilance than a heavy and stable sailboat like our old Ericson. In fact, I enjoy the interaction with the boat. I consider myself a relative newb to sailing and definitely not a purist as a sailor. I look at the entire experience that the boat can provide and am not overly critical of its shortcomings.

I really like the idea of using a guest slip on San Diego bay! If you don't mind, I'd like to know where to rent a guest slip and how it costs? Coming from Temecula, I could see that as being part of a routine my wife and I would enjoy. We can keep the boat on our property though.

Thanks again!
Rick

BTW, I rode to Death Valley a few weeks ago with a small group. One of the guys had a modified ZX-14 that put out 187HP to the rear wheel! I ride an '07 FJR1300, which is a great compromise between handling and comfort.

[mastreb]

With a sailing background in high performance catamarans, I definitely don't mind that the Macs require a bit more input / vigilance than a heavy and stable sailboat like our old Ericson. In fact, I enjoy the interaction with the boat. I consider myself a relative newb to sailing and definitely not a purist as a sailor. I look at the entire experience that the boat can provide and am not overly critical of its shortcomings.

I really like the idea of using a guest slip on San Diego bay! If you don't mind, I'd like to know where to rent a guest slip and how it costs? Coming from Temecula, I could see that as being part of a routine my wife and I would enjoy. We can keep the boat on our property though.

Thanks again!
Rick

BTW, I rode to Death Valley a few weeks ago with a small group. One of the guys had a modified ZX-14 that put out 187HP to the rear wheel! I ride an '07 FJR1300, which is a great compromise between handling and comfort.

It's not different than traditional sailing, its simply that you actually do need to reef, which I could get away with not doing by letting my keel boat heel over. You actually do have to flatten sheets to go close hauled to the wind, which a keel makes really easy. It can be work to tack, especially at low speed, which a heavy keel would pull you through. It's no different, it's just not nearly as forgiving as a full-keel boat. That said, I've nearly sunk in full keel boat because a thru-hull valve was accidentally opened by a passenger. Let me tell you, a 6,000 lb. keel will drag a boat down fast.

Guest slips in Oceanside Harbor are rented by the Oceanside Police at the dock for $27/night. Well worth it, excellent harbor. San Diego guest slips are rented by the harbor police at the dock for $10/night for five nights or $20 for the next five nights, with a ten day per 40 day period maximum use. Finding this out was the deciding factor for us getting the boat. You can call their phone numbers, call on VHF 16, or frankly just put in first and then go pay.

187hp isn't modified, that's stock--it's what my stock bike does anyway. At speed the RAM air gets you just over 200hp. I rode Death Valley last year in January with a friend. It was epic fun. Do you have the FJR with the automatic transmission? I was looking at the Concours vs. the FJR when I bought my ZX.

You'll like the 26X, but it will be work.

[rickj514]

Thanks for the additional details. The ability to get to guest slips is indeed a strong argument to getting this boat. I'm also real excited about the prospects to going over to Catalina with my wife, as I think she will really enjoy that. Cheap and relaxing vacation. I really hope we can work a deal on the 26X so I don't have to revert back to the Classic.

My FJR is not the AE automatic version as I enjoy shifting too much to consider that one, and 145 HP is more than enough for me!

Rick

[mastreb]

I forgot to mention--If you put in at San Diego, you might want to avoid the Shelter Island ramp until you're >REALLY< good at trailering and untrailering. It's busy, directly affected by ocean waves, and has a nice circular current going at all times. I've scraped off a prop there. It's just around the corner from the guest slips.

Sweetwater is MUCH easier, but about 30 minutes from the guest slips by water and 15 minutes by road.

Matt

[rickj514]

I forgot to mention--If you put in at San Diego, you might want to avoid the Shelter Island ramp until you're >REALLY< good at trailering and untrailering. It's busy, directly affected by ocean waves, and has a nice circular current going at all times. I've scraped off a prop there. It's just around the corner from the guest slips.

Sweetwater is MUCH easier, but about 30 minutes from the guest slips by water and 15 minutes by road.

Matt

Thanks, Matt.

You brought up a question I had about the boat. I used to launch my 26D from Shelter Island mostly, and it was challenging! I'm "assuming" that the 26X will be easier to launch due to its hull design being more motorboat oriented, as well as more HP. Do you think that is true? The 26D was hard to control in reverse, and also used to get knocked around by the wind, and possibly the circular currents you mentioned. Many more launch spots in Mission Bay than SD Bay.

It's been a long time, but I do remember the stress of launching at Shelter Island. Lots of small power boat owners being inconvenienced by a large, lumbering sailboat that took more time than they felt it should! Is the Sweetwater launch the one in National City? Never tried it, but I used to launch from Glorietta Bay in Coronado, which was better than Shelter Island. Limited parking though, so you had to get there early.

Rick

[baldbaby2000]

The classic is a real sailboat will sail circles around an X or an M especially in light winds. I've been in races with my M against the other 2 types. Any Mac with a daggerboard will have the risk of hitting something and breaking it.

[bscott]

The arrival of grandkids necessitated the sale of my Capri 25 in favor of an 01 Grandma needed a family boat that we could sail/motor/sleep over and fish from or it was adios

I consider the boat to be a hobby on water and have managed to find ways to comfortably sail with acceptable speed. My racing buddies joke alot about my waterbago but I manage to get to the best anchorages first And have time to drop a fishing line as well.
The D is a better sailor but the center board is a better family choice.

Bob

[mastreb]

You won't have any problem coming off the trailer at Shelter island in an X. Reverse off, helm to port and the boat will come around pointing directly at the entrance. Forward and you're out in the bay. It's coming in that's the real trouble: You're trying to zig-zag in with a helm that's not all that precise, line up to a trailer in a circular current with jet skis going around you and zero margin of error if you miss and have to back up. The dock is too far from the ramp to line-handle the boat onto the trailer which is always my preferred method since we've got to get kids and supplies off anyway. The boat is really too long for the tight confines of the Shelter Island jetty in my opinion when coming in. We will often put in at Shelter Island, store the SUV and trailer there, spend a few days at the Public Docks, and when it's time to go the Admiral will head down to sweetwater with the tow vehicle and I'll take the boat down to sweetwater and trailer it there.

There are two new options:

Sweetwater is the new ramp in National City. It has easy freeway access and plenty of parking. There are guest slips there as well but they're run by a private company and I've never used them or know anything about them.

There's also a new boat ramp in Chula Vista which I've not yet used. These are both "shallow" boat ramps but more than deep enough for a Mac. Chula Vista is quite south, so you'll be doing some motoring if you're used to hanging out in Point Loma.

Glorietta is nice but does have limited parking. That's why I put in on Thursday

As for Mission Bay--Bridges. All about 34 to 40 feet off the tide depending on the time of day, which means that I can't get my through them reliably without hitting the bridge. You >might< squeek an underneath them because they do have a shorter mast, but you'd have more huevos than I have to try it. Mission Bay is dominated by jet skis and ski boats all running circles around you, and yeah, the powersailors can get up to some speed but you're like the fat kid running at a track and field event in that environment. It's okay to hang out in the back of mission bay but it's pretty small and really designed for people who want to motor rather than sail.

Mission Bay's purpose is to keep powerboats and Jet Skis out of San Diego harbor in my opinion.

Matt

[John McDonough]

Hi Everyone,

Sorry if this is an old topic...
How does the 26X compare in terms of sailing to the 26D? Based on what I'm reading it sounds like the 26D is a better sailor than the 26X,

but am I going to be real disappointed in how it sails?

Comments much appreciated.

Rick

Its a real old topic.. often repeated, but for good reasons.

I owned a 26D for 11 seasons. definitly a much better Sailboat and much faster at all points of Sail. Also better than other brands of similar cruising lor trailables.

When I bought a 26x, i was shocked at its slow sailing speed, but you only realize how slow your going when there is another Sailboat traveling in the same direction.
1 or 2 mph is no big deal.. If your in a hurry, dont buy a Sailboat.
The 26X or 26M gives you the trills of owning a Sailboat, just dont excpect to win any races. It still Sails OK and heels over enough to scare most land-lubbers.

When I first bought my 26X, I was having 2nd thoughts. The Man I sold my 26D showed up. I then realized that the 26X has much more room & comfort. We started to Sail across
Lake Erie to Canada. The Wind went calm, the 26D did not want to chance motoring another 30 miles. I said goodbye and at full throttle I was at the Canadain dock in about 2 hours.
I returned the next day. 15mph Northwest wind 15 mph, spinnaker surfing back to the USA. My ole 26D was tacking along the Erie coast, wishing he would of went to Canada.

The 26X 50 HP motor 15+ mph speed capability spoiled me. It gives me more confidence to travel to distant ports. It gives me more confidence to Sail further knowing I can use the
motor to return, if necessary.

[mastreb]

Ditto that. I came from a fantastic full keel sailboat, a Columbia Sabre 32'. The Mac is considerably more difficult to sail especially at 6 or 7 knots which the Columbia would do unless you forced it not to.

But the Columbia spent its entire life in San Diego Bay. Ventured out into the blue once, for about 30 minutes. Otherwise, it was ten years of the same harbor over and over.

In contrast, the Mac has been in five different harbors in three months. Yes, it takes more skill to sail and it's slower. Yes, it's a PIA to raise and lower the mast, and to launch and load. But deciding to fire up the motor to just get to Catalina means you can spend time there without worrying about a 12 hour transit and where the sun will be when you arrive. Being able to trailer means deciding you don't like the seas in Dana Point, turning around, retrailering, driving down to Oceanside, and putting back into the water in two hours total.

The boat does 5 knots under sail, 15 knots under power, and 55 knots on the freeway. It's exceptionally liberating.

Matt

[Catigale]

Classic post on the Mac , Matt....backed up with the experience of keelboat history.

[ronacarme]

Bot a new 26D in 1988 and sold it in 2000, at which time we bot a new 2001 26X for its much more comfy interior (headroom, galley, dinette, vberth under the stars). Unexpected bonus was the ability of the X to selfsteer, with CB set to balance the sailplan ( main alone or plus headsail), on courses above a beam reach, for10 - 20 -30 minutes at a time. We expected the X to be a bit slower than the D and it is slower than that.....the D could outreach several local 30 footers, whereas the X gets outreached by a local Catalina 22....but at our age (73) comfort trumps speed and besides we can always fire up the 9.9 Honda and motorsail quietly past the 30 footers.
The X required a bigger, 3500# rated, tow vehicle than the D (tho the new M needs even a higher rated tow-er).
Every boat has its distinct strengths. Failure to select the right boat (or car or wife, etc) for your needs may disappoint. The D fit my needs in its time, as does the X now.
Ron

[Catigale]

Ron ....can. You tell me about what revs you turn on the 9.9 to reach hull speed or about 6 kts?