Poor performance in strong wind

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enufsed
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Poor performance in strong wind

Post by enufsed »

I was very disappointed in the performance of my MacGregor X yesterday sailing on Lake Ontario, and although I'm sure I have lots to learn about the finer points of reefing sails and so on, I'm beginning to wonder about the sail-ability of this boat. Yesterday's experience was enough to turn my girlfriend and myself off of a planned two-day sail on the Lake from Toronto down to Quinte's Isle.

The previous day, the winds were just above 5 knots and the waves were small. In those conditions the sailing was very enjoyable. We managed to jibe and come about, and the boat heeled nicely as we took on speed on a beam reach, and so on. Your typical fun sailing experience.

But yesterday, the wind was blowing just abouve 10 knots and the swells were higher. We couldn't do anything with the boat. Once the sails were up we got "stuck" bouncing around in a position between a beam reach and pointing windward. We could not get the bow of the boat to move far enough in either direction to turn the boat around or tack. We were in this one course and position, with the waves tossing us around. It felt more like being in a bathtub than any kind of sailing vessel.

Eventually I grew frustrated and also afraid because the course we were on had us heading straight back to shore and into the path of many returning boats, with our lack of maneuverability creating danger of a collision. I threw on the engine, pointed into the wind and pulled down the sails and went back to our dock at the marina.

So this was very discouraging. I know that the MacGregors are not "performance" sailboats but this was ridiculous! Unless I can figure out some basic ways to sail in strong winds, it looks like I'm condemned to nothing more than evening sails in mild winds. :cry:
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ROAD Soldier
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by ROAD Soldier »

A Macgregor does not cut through waves very well especially going windward. The larger the wave the more likely you are to stall or bounce back to your original tack. The trick in those conditions is to tack as quickly as possible. You can do this in one of two ways. First and easiest for a beginner is use the motor in the tack. Second as you get comfortable in those conditions try back drafting the jib or Genoa whichever one you have. To do this as you tack pull your head sail tight leaving it on the same side it is on while going into the tack and let it turn you. Once squarely on the opposite side release the headsail and let it go to the opposite side then trim it.
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c130king
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by c130king »

Something is probably not quite right or correct. 10 knots is a great wind speed for really good sailing. You should have been able to sail at a good clip at that wind speed.

Ease the main..."when in doubt, let it out". Ease the foresail as well.

Ease them until they start flapping then tighten them in a little to stop the flapping.

Do you have the "tell tales" on your main? Were they streaming nicely off the trailing edge of the sail or were they curled around behind...a sign of over-sheeting.

And you may try cheating a little bit with the motor at slow speed. Use the motor to get the boat going and pointing the direction you want (somewhere between 60 degrees to 120 degrees off the wind) and then play with the sails and once they seem to be full and working you can shut down the motor and either leave it down or raise it up (and disconnect it if that is your preference).

Keep practicing...Good Luck.

Cheers,
Jim
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Sailing on König YouTube Channel
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Hamin' X
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by Hamin' X »

I can't imagine 10 kn winds giving you any problem. Were you reefed at all? What headsail were you using? Do you have a roller furler on the headsail? I regularly sail in 30 kn winds with the main double reefed and the 150 genny down to beach towel size. Boat balances fine and heel is < 20º. This is in three foot waves that the wind is tearing the top off from.

What are your symptoms? If the boat is trying to round-up into the wind, you may have too much mast rake. If it wants to fall off the wind, you may have too little mast rake. My boat has a touch of weather helm at 15º heel, which is normal and this weather helm increases with heel. The boat will round-up at about 40º and stop sailing, as it is now in irons.

Sorry you had a poor experience, but I'm sure that it can be fixed with tuning, or technique. These boats sail fine in heavier weather.

~Rich
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ROAD Soldier
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by ROAD Soldier »

Also remember your centerboard. When heading up put more centerboard down unless you experience extreme weather helm then take some in. Also balance of the boat as far as what you have in it, don't have all heavy objects in one end of the boat. And like C130 said keep practicing and don't be afraid of healing. You will have trouble tacking if you are not letting your boat build enough power if you are trying keep your healing under 15 degrees. This is a common gut fear for beginners. The best way to get over it if you have this problem is just hang onto the main sheet when the boat heals and let it teach you what it can take. Remember you can always let go of the sheet. 15 to 15 degrees will always happen quit fast compared to lead ballasted sailboat types but after that it will slow down. Each time you go out set a new goal in healing. Today I will operate at 15 degrees net time at 18 and next at 20 and so on. Soon you will be able not even bat an eye until you get over 30 degrees.
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enufsed
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by enufsed »

It's good news to hear that some of you are able to sail fine in these conditions (and even stronger winds/waves).

I suspect I need to do a lot experimenting with reefing the main and furling in the jib (on its furler).

I did play with having the centreboard in various positions. It was about 3/4 down most of the time. (I find it difficult to get the thing to drop completely when there's a lot of pressure on it as we move forward through the water.)

My problem wasn't heeling (we were at a very steep angle many times); it was more like we weren't making much headway -- the sails were very full (I had no problem there, and I was holding the main sheet most of the time, ready to let it out or pull it in as necessary) -- it was rather that we weren't able to jibe or come about. I will use the motor next time if necessary.

I will study on this website on different ways to use the sails to overcome the weather helm and the challenges we encountered. Thing is, I have experience sailing other boats like my friend's CS 27 and it's just far far easier in similar weather to tack and change directions and so on.

I have a feeling that our main problem was we had too much sail for what we were trying to do, and couldn't overcome the power of the wind that was filling the sails and keeping us on one course.

I'll play around more and let you know what I find out.
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beene
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by beene »

Hi

Any time you want me to come along and help out, just give me call or email.
I am over by Humber West.
I will taking my M out mid Aug if you want to hook up.

If you were sailing yesterday it was a lot more than 10 kts

I have sailed in higher winds plenty of times.
Highlander and i usually wait for a small craft warning b4 we head out. LOL

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u119 ... 0_4561.mp4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmDYpj_ ... ata_player

Send me a pm if you are interested

Cheers

G
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enufsed
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by enufsed »

Beene, I will PM you. Thanks. Let me know when youy receive it.
ronacarme
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by ronacarme »

Please give more detail re being stuck on a narrow range of headings (between 90 and 45 degrees apparent wind?) in 10 kn wind...
1. Unreefed or reefed main? Sheeted how tight?Or loose and flapping? Headsail unfurled? Sheeted how tight?
2. CB line out how far? 3/8, 1/2,7/8, all?
I ask because my x will reliably get stuck on a heading between 90 and 45 degrees apparent, when flying main only with CB full or almost full down. You could simulate that with the headsail sheeted way loose and flapping (as to minimize heeling). Also, sailboats don"t steer unless moving fast enuf for water flow past the CB and rudders to create lift.
Also, as discussed in a recent thread, the CB does not go up and down unless you relieve the side pressure on it.
It takes a while to learn the X's ways, but given that it will sail as obediently as any other sailboat, more comfortably than many, tho slower than most.
So please tell us more.
Ron
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by bscott »

enufsed--because the wheel steering gives little feedback and you cannot see how much rudder you are turning--sometimes you can oversteer and put the :macx: in irons without knowing. I have learned to quickly turn the wheel about 1 turn, slightly backwind the jib and center the wheel as soon as boat get halfway thru the tack. I harden up the jib after I have completed the tack. I also fall off a few degrees before I tack to gain some speed. Wrap tape around the wheel in the straight forward position so you know the approximate rudder position.
I am not ashamed to drop the iron genny if I miss a tack or I get too close to a rocky disaster :wink: My :macx: will never be a high performance racer--been there, done all that.

Bob
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by Crikey »

Lake Ontario can be the perfect storm anytime stronger winds get a chance to work it up. I mostly operate on the Niagara side and have seen it take longer than a day to settle down after a hard blow. It also sounds like mast rake may be contributing to some of the pointing issues but large wave action will be a severe moderator for any sailboat.

Keep at it - remember we outsailed them in 1812-14 on Lac Ontario, and we can do it again! 8)
Go Canucks!

Ross
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by Highlander »

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Ixneigh
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by Ixneigh »

These boats are light high windage boats with minimum sail. Ive been sailing quite a while and even I had trouble at times with tacking in various winds with different sail combinations. The boat has a learning curve. Keep at it.
Ive had to use every trick I know and learn some new ones. Good luck with it. The folks on this board seem pretty helpful.

Ixniegh
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ROAD Soldier
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by ROAD Soldier »

Crikey wrote: Keep at it - remember we outsailed them in 1812-14 on Lac Ontario, and we can do it again! 8)
Go Canucks!

Ross
That is what we call a faint, thanks for taking the bait which lead to the US winning the war :) .
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Crikey
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Re: Poor performance in strong wind

Post by Crikey »

OK then, it's on again! Just as soon as we get a few more of these sailors trained properly.

Cannons at 40 paces. Look for us in line of battle outside Fort Niagara.....

:x
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