Stability issues

[robbarnes1965]

The admiral is not one to scare easy but she drew the line last week when I was heeling so much the dagger was out of the water. I was having a great time but it was not unanimous so a reef was put in.

All the ballast in the world does not do as well as well reefed sails. No mods needed.

Rob

[dca81]

Stability. Macgregor, that's an oxymoron if one ever existed. In my limited experience getting the admiral involved and a bit knowledgable is the key. This season (our second) my wife finally got comfortable at 15 degrees of heel after a really scary experience our first year. I let her control the jib lines and amount of jib to let out. She made the comment after one sail this season that she felt more comfortable now that she knew she could just let the jib lines release if necessary. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. I wish you luck in finding a way to make this vessel a bit more stable. If you get an effective/practical method (filling ballast with guck???) please share because I have the same concern.

PS Goal is 20 degrees next year

[mastreb]

Not sure what homeland security would have to say about 1200lbs of floating glycerine. Sounds like a path for a waterborne binary explosive!

No worries--glycerin doesn't float. In any case extra ballast is not going to significantly change the boat's tenderness due to the short moment arm as already discussed. Extra ballast is only going to reduce angles of extreme heel. There is bouyancy stuficient for several thousand pounds on these boats--you'd have to get low enough in the water to swamp the cockpit in order to sink it. This would be well beyond the boat's inherent bouyancy provided by foam though so you'd lose that safety feature. Also every pound slows the boat, so it would be a pig for handling well before you caused any safety issues.

The only way to reduce tenderness is to lengthen the moment arm by adding (significant) weight below the hull or to widen and flatten the hull, which short of adding amas or some sort of foil isn't going to happen. A lead or bismuth skeg or bulb on the daggerboard would do the job. Doing a skeg has the advantage of not needing to be lifted.

[Ixneigh]

Lead. On the inside of the bottom of the boat. The 250 pounds i added kicks in at20 degrees and really helps. Its not even dead center bottom.
Can anyone do the math to tell me how much lead id need to replace the water? Not just pound for pound but also considering its much lower in thd boat then water.

Ixneigh

also extreme heel is not effective sailing. Reef earlier. These boats are quite as stable as they need to be.

[jschrade]

Adding weight to reduce heel is not the answer and creates a whole host of other issues.

1. Use the traveler to dump wind (move to leeward)
2. Flatten the sail (sort of limited capability with the stock sail)
3. Reduce sail (roll in the furler and reef the main)

Heel problem solved.

Jim

[Retcoastie]

Does anybody have any idea just how much extra ballast we could add without seriously diminishing the main feature that attracted us towards a Macgregor - IE it's unsinkability ?

If you were using water as the ballast, I would think you could use all you could get in the boat. If she ever submerged, the water ballast would be neutral bouyancy. She would not sink lower if the water was contained in a ballast system or flowing freely in the cabin.

Ken

[kitcat]

Jim, all your suggestions are just great, except that they don't work instantly in gusty conditions. The only way is to hold the mainsheet all the time and be ready to release it as soon as a gust hits, and I'm looking for a way around that, so we can relax a bit more

Paul

[Don T]

Hello,
I've thought of using a bungie cord addition to the main sheet. Use it to take the main in to where you want it and the mainsheet is adjusted to the eased out setting. Then when a gust comes along the main automatically eases out with the excess wind pressure. Been thinking along these lines (pun intended) to help with the gusty Columbia conditions.

[Boblee]

Paul

My wifes in charge of healing... If the wind picks up or gets gusty, the sailing ends! LOL Its probably our primary reason for owning the Mac. Its a h@ll of a lot better powered cruiser than all those other trailer sailers and since I know I will have to power most of the time when the family is aboard, I might as well have the best powering sailboat LOL

Our wives would get on well, found the best way to fix this within reason was to let Ray steer (auto pilot) and let her operate the sheets while I sit around as ballast and for fine tuning.
We went from the West end of the Gippsland Lakes back to Payneville (20k's)? with 20-25 knot winds, she was keeping the guage at 10-15 deg but didn't tell her until we finished it was sticking we got well over 25 deg.
Gives them or anyone much more confidence if they can operate the sheets and control heeling.
As for extra water ballast, thinking about it it is not going to do anymore than the standard until it starts to lift and thats why it's tender as it's neutral.
We almost had a divorce when we were having a nice sail and got caught with wind against an accelerating tide on a headland with confused sea's in the Whitsundays which is a fantastic place to visit and do light sailing or motoring but you can get caught so leave ballast in at all times, except when beached.

[mastreb]

Lead. On the inside of the bottom of the boat. The 250 pounds i added kicks in at20 degrees and really helps. Its not even dead center bottom.
Can anyone do the math to tell me how much lead id need to replace the water? Not just pound for pound but also considering its much lower in thd boat then water.

Ixneigh

also extreme heel is not effective sailing. Reef earlier. These boats are quite as stable as they need to be.

You'd need 1350 lbs. of lead total. The center of gravity of the water ballast along the keel, from which the moment arm of ballast is computed, would only be about an inch or so above the moment of a lead keel, because most of the flood ballast tank is quite flat. The issue with lead replacement that I would worry about is fore-aft distribution to maintain the same pitch characteristics, affixing it to ensure that it doesn't move, and remove-ability so as not to affect resale value.

[Ixneigh]

Well ok. Thanks for the info.
I did try sailing the boat in light airs with no other ballast but there was no appearent gain in speed. Before i did thst i anchored in shallow water and tried to pull the boat over with the halyard. Not possible for me. I feel better about motoring without the water ballast now though.

Ixneigh

[jschrade]

When you see a capsize, it is almost always due to too much weight (as in people) on top of the boat.

Jim

[jschrade]

If reefing the main and rolling in the headsail doesn't do it for you, then you need a different boat to meet your needs. Something heavier with more beam or more hulls!

All boats heel in gusts with the exception of catamarans (which heel very little). What gets folks on the Macgregor is that the motion is very quick initially and then it stabilizes but that is very unsettling to many.

These won't flip but they will round up when overpowered. That's a little too much excitement for many.

Jim

Jim, all your suggestions are just great, except that they don't work instantly in gusty conditions. The only way is to hold the mainsheet all the time and be ready to release it as soon as a gust hits, and I'm looking for a way around that, so we can relax a bit more

Paul

[Trouts Dream]

The Admiral has become a virtual professional at watching for wind gusts and either letting out the main (if shes handling it), heading up (if shes helming) or just shouting out a warning (if I'm not paying enough attention).

Wind gusts can be seen on the water (if you know what your looking for) in pleanty of time to minimize the extreme healing. It takes a bit of practice but the best way to describe it is a rougher surface on the water (as if sanded with a course sand paper) and the speed its comong gives an indication of its power.

[kitcat]

Yep, I agree, the gusts can be seen fairly easily scudding over the surface, but as you say it can all happen quite quickly and from a comfortable 10 degrees you're beyond 35 and the Admiral is shouting at you to "stop it", then you try and flick the main out of the jammer, and it it won't go and and and, then she won't talk to you and doesn't want to go out again unless there is NO wind, and where's the fun in that?

Paul