CB extra weight

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restless
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CB extra weight

Post by restless »

Just before going cruising for a month I finally took a deep breath and added 22kg of lead to the bottom end of our cb. I also came up with a pretty simple way of stoping the damn thing from clanging about at anchor. After living aboard for the last month, I'm very pleased to report that we're really pleased with the results. Due to weather we didn't get to sail quite as much as we would have liked, but the extra stability was really noticeable. Even if only for the lack of rocking at night, I would recomend doing this.

My technique: I drilled a 1 1/2" hole 15" above the bottom of the board. I cast a load of lead cylinders by pushing an inch rod into sand, filling it with lead, cleaning beat on an anvil, then popping them in the cb hole till they dropped down and filled the hollow section up. I can still remove them with a fiddle if I need to.

I beefed the lifting eye up some, and put a 3:1 block on which was actually unnesseccary and jammed more than helped. It can still be operated without blocks, just about.

I sliped a 1'8 ss plate alongside the cb, located by the existing pins. This took out nearly all the slack. I then added a plate with a gaden tap valve head to the side of the cb trunk inside the boat. Before going to sleep I just wound this in till snug, and restless became restfull :)

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GaryMayo
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by GaryMayo »

48.4 pounds for us that use such. That much weight will not interfere with the ability to float if swamped.

Looks like a good place to hide a stash of GOLD if anyone of us had any!
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Seapup
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by Seapup »

Thanks for the update, I think this may be one of my next mods.

Do you feel you achieved a good balance of added weight vs benefit?

Would you recommend adding either more or less weight?

You are using the factory hing and line attachment points, just reinforced correct?

Anything you would change in hindsight?
Looks like a good place to hide a stash of GOLD if anyone of us had any!
Not sure about gold at about 30k a lb ...but am considering the possibility of pennies... I already collect/sort coins and have a collection of junk pre 82 copper cents which are about 80% the density of lead. 45lbs is about $60 in pennies.
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restless
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by restless »

massive plus, I'm really happy with the mod. I may add another 4 or 5 kg.. I'll put a simple 2:1 block to ease the raising of it. My biggest fear was the lifting point. As can be seen by the photo I've put in a ss strengthening piece which also gives some geometric advantage on the lifting of the cb when fully down. Knot Sure has done a mod with greater weight with a different lifting strategy which is good, but too much surgery for me.
The side plate (I'll post a photie when I find it) is a really nice touch. Soo easy to make and fit, and takes 90% of the clunk out of the board with (as far as I can tell) no compromise regarding the strength and stresses of the board when in use. It also provides the contact point for the screw.
If you're going to do alot of sleeping aboard, then this is a seriously top mod in my book, especially as it means Mrs can sleep too..... we all know a grumpy admiral can make a glorious day into something quite different.. well I've heard it rumoured anyways :wink:
underway it seems to damp out much of the twitchiness I'm used to with this X, though to be fair it is currently well loaded with scuba gear and heaps of other paraphenalia too so perhaps I'm being a little optimistic. I have yet to really test her under sail, though motoring through some fairly heavy swells (board down) was still pretty stable :)
esc
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by esc »

One thing that I have noticed on my :macx: with extra CB weight is that the pulley where the CB line makes a 90 degree turn to head back towards the cockpit seems like it is lifting off of the deck a little. There is a bunch of "Goop" all around it where the PO tried to seal a leak.

I suspect that the extra weight is having an adverse effect on this pulley. It might be something to keep an eye on. I plan on removing, inspecting and replacing or re-installing (depending on condition) mine sometime soon. I'm not sure how it is secured, but I think some oversize washers on the bottom would be a good idea.

I'm curious, if the lead is just laying in the bottom of the CB...doesn't it rattle around?

Also where are you going to position the 2:1 block?
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arknoah
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by arknoah »

Interesting mod for the 26s and certainly one that seems worth considering.
kitcat
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by kitcat »

I wonder if somthing similar would work on an M with a straight up and down daggerboard? I seem to remember posts from people who had put lead shot into the bottom of the hollow section? Does this also work to damp out the initial movements in the gusts that so upset admirals? :cry:
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by chp »

Finally someone has tried the mod I have been toying with for a year. My concerns for doing this have been 1: the lateral stress on the daggerboard and possably snapping it. 2:pulling the swing keel back up. 3:wear on the pivot pin and the hole in the swing keel. Keep us updated on any problems. This may be a project for next winter. This winter is a rudder mod and a helsman bimini.
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by Divecoz »

Yes several have ... IIRC? It Didn't Help..not for DB rattle.. If It helps on the CB then it MUST be putting enormous strain on you pivot rod.. I still toy with the thought of adding weight to my DB and I really need to discuss it with Highlander / Jon on this board..and Mastreb....Many of us Like Jon and Back in the day Leon are now sailing faster because we too use less board dragging in the water.. EVEN if I add say 35 to 50 LBS of weight to the DB ? Will it help my heeling, when I only have it a couple feet in the water.. I am concerned about Lateral Strength of the board as well ! Its easy to make it stronger..... but .. both boards D.B. and C.B. will / should SNAP before they cause any real damage $$$$$ to the boat. for less than 3lbs and about $25 .... I can TRIPLE The strength of my board and THAT might well be counter productive..I can afford to replace my D.B should I break it.. (I may not like it , but I can afford it) I cannot afford!! To shatter or crack the Trunk on my boat..!!! HUmm Now to Get Highlander and Mastreb involved in this discussion..
kitcat wrote:I wonder if something similar would work on an M with a straight up and down daggerboard? I seem to remember posts from people who had put lead shot into the bottom of the hollow section? Does this also work to damp out the initial movements in the gusts that so upset admirals? :cry:
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by Crikey »

Extra to this line of discussion, I would also like to know if anyone has had the means to check the snugness of the DB ( :macm: ) when it is fully lowered into position? On an earlier thread I mentioned I was tempted to dig a maintenance hole in my yard to check this, and use it for subsequent work in this area. Hasn't happened yet, and the grounds getting a little hard frozen at this point in the season.

I suspect there could be some lateral (side to side) play that would bias over, and get taken up when heeled. Depending on how much - might contribute to some of the initial tenderness, as well as provide a pathway for breakage of the DB if any extra weight was added. I also think play (if any) would be greater when only partially deployed.

Any feedback :?:
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Divecoz
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by Divecoz »

I dove mine , in the water.. and listened to it when at anchor :x Both up.. down.. in the middle and just about every other position :x ..... for WEEKS on End! Hence the DB rattle..comment :x

That dang board ain't snug if its so much as attached to the boat.. Issue is.. If its too snug snug , it doest Function/deploy well...
Numerous issues have been addressed .. IIRC One was to Make the board an extra layer of glass and epoxy both side whole board and another IIRC was just to "thickening" it at the bottom for a Snugger fit when Retracted..
Crikey wrote:Extra to this line of discussion, I would also like to know if anyone has had the means to check the snugness of the DB ( :macm: ) when it is fully lowered into position? On an earlier thread I mentioned I was tempted to dig a maintenance hole in my yard to check this, and use it for subsequent work in this area. Hasn't happened yet, and the grounds getting a little hard frozen at this point in the season.

I suspect there could be some lateral (side to side) play that would bias over, and get taken up when heeled. Depending on how much - might contribute to some of the initial tenderness, as well as provide a pathway for breakage of the DB if any extra weight was added. I also think play (if any) would be greater when only partially deployed.

Any feedback :?:
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bscott
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by bscott »

Bald Baby added weight to his DB--search his posts.

Bob
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mastreb
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by mastreb »

The dagger-board is not particularly snug in the trunk when deployed--it rattles back and forth unless there's a current holding it to one side. When under sail this doesn't matter at all, as the lateral forces against the boat hold it firmly in place. Only at the moment of transition from one heel to the other will the dagger-board move at all when underway. At night in a slip or moored just jam a boat hook down into the trunk to keep it from rattling.

As for weight counteracting heel, of course it will, and the lower the weight is in the water the greater both the inertial moment (resistance to motion countering tenderness) and leverage (righting force countering maximum heel) will be.

Lever force is easy to calculate: A horizontal lever has weight * length force, so a 10 lb. arm with a 10 lb. weight at the end exerts 100 ft. lbs. of torque (turning force) at the pivot point opposite the weight. That calculation is easy. However, presuming you are not typically running at a 90 degree heel, the more useful formula is Force=length*weight*sin(heel angle). For a 30 degree heel, 5 foot length, and 50 lb. weight, the additional righting torque would be:

[Be sure DRG or DEG mode says "DEG" in the display and not RAD or GRAD]
[3][0][sin][x][5][x][5][0][=] 125lbs.

You can do this one easily in your head because sin(30) is 0.5 -- 50% the righting torque of a 90 degree arm. 45 degrees is 70%, and 20 degrees is just about 1/3.

125 lbs. of additional righting torque is nothing to sneeze at, but do remember that your DB is now 50 lbs. heavier. Doing that same math with the board 1/4 down (1.25 feet) provides only 31 ft. lbs. of righting torque--not much at all. And at low angles of heel such as 10 degrees with the board down, the weight will provide 43 lbs. of righting force--not a whole lot, and with the board up, no significant righting force at all. In fact, if the board is higher than the center of buoyancy when pulled up in the trunk (as it will be), it will promote rather than reduce tenderness (such as when slipped). For this reason, you want to put the weight in the DB as low as you can. The lead shot + resin method is almost certainly best, which you can search out on this forum.

The overall effect will be similar to having one additional ( :D ) fat guy on the windward gunnels to counter heel (the lever arm is shorter so the weight has to be higher).

To prevent capsize on a Mac, you need to have 1300 lbs. of righting moment at 70 degrees of heel. (this would be equal to the water ballast). This translates to a 275 lb. lead bulb on the keel, which would essentially allow you to safely run your boat (board ALL THE WAY DOWN) with 1000 lbs. less weight on board. The problem here is that if the board is up, the Mac will blow down because the righting torque is only 300 lbs. So if you did this mod, you'd gain a lighter boat at the cost of being unable to pull up the board for reduced drag. Probably the lighter boat would provide better speed, but there are so many variables involved here that an empirical test would be easier than doing the math.

So yeah, 50 lbs. of weight on the board should have a moderately positive effect on heel, and consider that the effect magnifies as the boat goes farther over, so that by 50 degrees of heel you have almost 200 lbs. of righting torque.

The dagger-board currently produces righting force by hydrodynamic lift--it's like an airplane wing through the water, creating lift (force) that opposes heel. I don't know the shape characteristics of the DB so I can't calculate the lifting force directly, but my suspicion is that it's similar to the amount of torque that added weight provides.

Mostly its the water ballast countering heel.
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by kitcat »

That is a very comprehensive reply, thanks for going to the trouble, I can't pretend I understood too much of the detail though. :?

Maybe we should also be asking ourselves, why Roger Macgregor hasn't fitted a weighted DB as a matter of course, surely he would have thought about this as much as we have? I can see that too much weight would not necesarily be a good thing and could complicate the lifting mechanism and add extra trailed weight, but the upside is slightly more stability etc.

Paul
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Re: CB extra weight

Post by Crikey »

mastreb wrote:The dagger-board is not particularly snug in the trunk when deployed--it rattles back and forth unless there's a current holding it to one side. When under sail this doesn't matter at all, as the lateral forces against the boat hold it firmly in place. Only at the moment of transition from one heel to the other will the dagger-board move at all when underway. At night in a slip or moored just jam a boat hook down into the trunk to keep it from rattling.
So yeah, 50 lbs. of weight on the board should have a moderately positive effect on heel, and consider that the effect magnifies as the boat goes farther over, so that by 50 degrees of heel you have almost 200 lbs. of righting torque.
The dagger-board currently produces righting force by hydrodynamic lift--it's like an airplane wing through the water, creating lift (force) that opposes heel. I don't know the shape characteristics of the DB so I can't calculate the lifting force directly, but my suspicion is that it's similar to the amount of torque that added weight provides.
Mostly its the water ballast countering heel.
Sorry for the excessive editing....
The idea that the Macregor Dagger Board contibutes hydrodynamic lift, is a given, as are all full keeled, single keeled sailboats. The difference with the Macgregor is basically the mass of the keel is kept higher above the keel base in the water ballast. The keelboat can benefit from a bulb of mass that doesn't have to be manipulated that contributes to the righting moment.
While running, under directional stresses induced by any sloppy bias in the pointing of the dagger-board, does the hydrodynamic lift and its direction change in value greatly?
That brings me back to my first question _ has anyone noticed how loose the factory dagger-board is? I'm beginning to think, like a keel boat, that diving board rigidity would be the way to go (regardless of mass)!
If that could be achieved, regardless of the cost of raising the mechanism, then like a refinement in the steering mechanism over that of factory stock, a similar improvement in keel rigidity should result in an improvement in sailing quality.
Like a wing sail, you could go far beyond that if you wanted to...

Ross 8)
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