Total newbie questions about running rigging/sails....

[mastreb]

The biggest difference between a jib and a genoa, and which to use, depends on your typical winds. A 150 Genoa is fantastic for winds between 2 and 10 knots, where at higher wind-speeds you'd furl it in to make it smaller. If your winds are consistently below 10 knots, as mine are in San Diego Bay, you'll get the best performance out of a Genoa.

On the other hand, if your winds are consistently over 7 knots, you're probably best off with a hank-on jib. Non-furler jibs point higher (i.e., they can sail closer into the wind) than any furler headsail or over 100% genoa. Furlers are super convenient, but they're not "higher performing" than a hank-on jib by any means. They make for a looser luff, which reduces aerodynamic performance of the sail.

What I do on those rare blustery days in San Diego is cleat off my roller furler at about 90% and then run my Genoa lines inside the shrouds. This gets the Genny in really tight, and it probably performs about 80% as well as a good hank-on jib. The trick is cleating off the roller line tightly so that the genny won't beat out of the furler at all. Then if the winds get really scary, I just keep bringing the Genny in. At one point I had a patch out no bigger than a flag, but it still really helps the helm control to have some headsail out.

If your winds are very inconsistent, as lake sailors often deal with, you might consider doing Highlander's Cutter Rig, where he's put a bow sprit out front and an additional hound atop the mast so he can have a roller furling Genoa 150 and a jib rigged all the time. Then it's just a matter of pulling out one (or both) depending on the sailing conditions. Complicates trailering quite a bit however, so consider your use.

I'm in the process of putting Mike Inmon's roller main reefing system on my boat now. It's $3000 from the factory and I believe it comes with the appropriate mainsail at that price. I bought mine on eBay for a ridiculously low $200 because I was the only bidder. I've got the roller furler on but I have to add some grommets to the sail to modify it for loose-foot usage. I just got the grommeting kit but have yet to modify the sail. I'd like to try to keep the main bolt-roped as well, but we'll see how that works out. In any case, I'm doing this with the stock main which I intend to replace once I've decided whether I'm keeping the roller reefer on or not, so it's my experimentation sail.

I'm considering re-building the Inmon roller furler with a slotted round spar so that I can keep a bolt-roped foot on the main.

The roller furler extends back into the cockpit an additional foot, and it's twice as heavy as a boom alone, so there's definitely more potential for head banging. I'll report on whether I like it better or not.

Sailing downwind with the Genoa to one side and the main to the other is called "Wing on Wing". I find it's much easier than deploying a spinnaker for day sailing. If I were following the trade-winds to Tahiti I'd definitely fly a spinnaker (on a bigger boat).

[bscott]

I applaud an admitted newbie that is willing to hire Judy to provide you with the best sails and furler--you will advance your sailing skills at a much faster rate because you and your will respond with greater performance--tacking will be crisper and the Hyde jib will pull the boat with less drag and sail on a closer reach at higher speeds than the OEM jib.

Changing head sails with a Harken, Schaefer or Judy's Selden is a breeze as they have a furler groove that accepts your luff tape and is hauled by a conventional halydard. You can change sails in less than 5 mins with another crew member hauling the halyard. This system also gives you the option of trimming the sail luff for on/off the wind reaches.

At your experience level I suggest learning to sail the boat with the jib and reefed main. This will give you confidence with less stress and you will find alot of performance with those new sails.

Bob

[Judy B]

I applaud an admitted newbie that is willing to hire Judy to provide you with the best sails and furler--you will advance your sailing skills at a much faster rate because you and your will respond with greater performance--tacking will be crisper and the Hyde jib will pull the boat with less drag and sail on a closer reach at higher speeds than the OEM jib.

Changing head sails with a Harken, Schaefer or Judy's Selden is a breeze as they have a furler groove that accepts your luff tape and is hauled by a conventional halydard. You can change sails in less than 5 mins with another crew member hauling the halyard. This system also gives you the option of trimming the sail luff for on/off the wind reaches.

At your experience level I suggest learning to sail the boat with the jib and reefed main. This will give you confidence with less stress and you will find alot of performance with those new sails.

Bob

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Bob!

The Selden GX is the furler for Cat's asymmetric cruising spinnaker. , not her jib or genoa.
With the chute on a GX furler, it'll be almost as simple to operate as a furling jib.



And her will fly on a reach or downwind even in light air.

(BTW, she's getting just the GX furler, not a sprit... at least for now. )

She has a CDI on her 26X, not a Schaefer. That'll be fine, even if it's not quite as nice as a Schaefer SnapFurl CD-500. The CDI came on the boat and it'll do fine for a season or for many seasson. IMO, Cat and her hubby should be enjoying sailing rather spending all their time replacing perfectly good gear. I'll build her furling headsails so that they will the CDI now, and if she ever decides to switch to the SnapFurl, it'll fit that one too. (might be a smidgeon tight, but it'll fit)

I'm taking good care of Cat... another WOMAN like me who is interested in sailings.... I love men , 'specially my hubby , but it's extra nice to have another girl taking part in the sailing community!

Judy

[Highlander]

Well here's how much heel u can get with a spin & as u can see theirs no reason to get scared just enjoy the ride as seen here Beene's just comes right back up
http://s844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 010128.mp4

Here's my boat I have no issues flying both the genny & jib at the same time here is my boat sailing by its self while I pose for the camera
http://s844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 0_2495.mp4

pointing into the wind


riding the swells


I'm fairly modest myself some think I am crazy ! , Then we have our loose cannons "Beene" Geoff what can I say this vid says it all
http://s844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 010074.mp4


Then theirs shy Rocky "Dreamer"


So ur Crew are more than welcome to join us in Aug Port Credit Marina for Ontario Rendezvous III


John

[StarSpun]

Thanks so much everyone for responding! I have replied to each of you individually, below:


Judy, thank you for all the wonderful information!
I think Cajun was saying the shackle is for the halyard. I will have to confirm all this.
A knot sounds like the way to go for us....for now maybe?

We for sure have to learn some knots! I know a couple from my former powerboating days, but I'm sure most wouldn't help for sailing;-)

The Selden model sounds goooood! Thanks so much for getting me one:-) Do they have the same types for the jib? Mine looks so clunky compared to that one!

As for what Cajun is recommending as a package is this:
(Type, size, working end, bitter end)

Main Halyard XLE - 1 5/16" - Headboard shackle - Flemmish Eye

Jib Halyard XLE - 1 5/16" - 2.75" SS Swivel Snap Shackle - Flemmish Eye

Main Sheet XLE - 1 3/8" - Eye Splice - Whipped /Heat Sealed

Jib Sheet XLE - 2 3/8" - Whipped /Heat Sealed - Whipped /Heat Sealed

Outhaul XLE - 1 3/8" - Heat Sealed - Heat Sealed

Roller furling XLE 1 1/4" - Heat Sealed - Heat Sealed

I am guessing I should get the Genoa sheets instead, and use them for the jib when I plan to use it for should I get both? What else should I ask them? This stuff is confuing as heck! Ha ha! There is also a line that goes from the top of the mast to the back part of the boom, it looks frayed. What is it? Also there is another one tied from the top to the front rail, it looks silly. I think it will need replacing as well. I pretty much want to change all the white lines to black and blue, to match my theme;-)
And now you are making me want a SnapFurl instead of this CDI!




RussMT, thanks so much for the explaination, tips and the picture! Pictures really help!
As for the heeling....I hear about people having knockdowns and there seem to be may MAC owners that fear capsizing, or maybe I am imagining it. That's why I thought it could happen. Is it really that hard to fill it with water and capsize?! Everytime we heel too much, I just envision everything filling with water, and me being trapped under somehow. I'm sure reading about those rare accidents in MACs didn't help much....
I almost hate to say it....but this boat makes me feel a bit unsafe. Maybe because it's new to me. I never felt unsafe in any of my previous boats, I know they were powerboats, and all that....but yes, it's always worse case scenario for me. Like, maybe the ballast has a malfunction, etc. I'm CONSTANTLY checking. This is coming from a VERY good swimmer who has practically grown up on the water. Perhaps I am getting fearful with age....LOL! Thanks for the explanation though, I am going to trust you and tell myself that it's OK next time Bryan makes the darn thing heel more than I like....


MastreB, some very interesting points, especially about the hank on jib. Thank you! I wonder how hard it is;-) Will have to find out soon....we for sure need lessons. There have been a few people at our marina who seem more than willing to take us out and show us stuff....so we'll see!
That's a great price....can't wait to see what you think of it....
Wing on Wing, that's it! We were so excited when we first did it by ourselves:-)

Bscott, thanks! We are super excited for new sails....with the way they will look AND perform! Judy has been a wealth of info as well! Now you are making me want a different furler for the jib/genoa;-)
And now, I will have to learn how to reef the main. I think ours is rigged all wrong....ugh!

Question....does anyone here have a line that pulls it down instead of walking up front to manually pull it?


Higlander....HOLY CRAPOLA! Thanks for the pics and video links. I was actually SCARED for all of you, LOL! Heeling like that, I would have had my lifejacket on, and possibly have jumped overboard in fear that the boat would capsize over me....LOL! You guys are totally nuts, I love it....we would love to join y'all at Port Credit Marina in August, just keep me posted! It's actually where we bought our boat, so that's cool. Would really enjoy meeting you guys! And if anyone is in the area of Toronto Island Marina, let me know. You can find us sailing outside of the harbour, sometimes inside of it....and anchored out at Hanlans Beach pretty much every weekend and sometimes during the week when it's hot!

[Catigale]

IMO, Cat and her hubby should be enjoying sailing rather spending all their time replacing perfectly good gear

Sage advice Judy, and should be heeded by all when you are starting out. 10 years later I'm still starting out....

I have changed sails on the CDI furler on anchor but it isn't easy....and don't forget that messenger line (a line you attach to the internal halyard in the CDI grey extrusion...it will go up the extrusion as you pull the sail down) or you will have to bring the mast down. what looks really funny is when you realize you have loaded your furler upside down just as a sailing school goes by in Turnabouts laughing....I sank them in retaliation.

I have limited experience on Ontario but I think the jib is the right sail for you this season. The boat will point better and heel less...Ontario is much more like ocean sailing than lake sailing with the important difference of the presence of short period waves on occasion....tough to handle in our light boats...

[captronr]

We found out how well our X worked the first season we owned it.

Being a real newbee, I didn't make sure my main sheet would run free. It was coiled hanging on the pedestal. With full main and genoa, a BIG gust hit us from the side. I released the mainsheet; about a foot of line played out, then a twist hung up at the block and the boom stopped. We were WAY overpowered.

What happened next terrified me as I thought we were going over, but when it was over, I went back in my mind and realized the X did just what it was designed to do!

It heeled way over, maybe 45*. Air spilled out of the sails. At the same time, one rudder came out of the water. With only one rudder holding, the boat rounded up and stalled out. Once that happened, the sails flogged.

Of course, everything on the table and counter was on the floor, but the boat did just what it was supposed to do. I would encourage you to replicate my activity so you can see your boat do the same. Of course, make sure the ballast is full and all the loose stuff secured.

Hope this helps.
Ron

[Tomfoolery]

Ok, I am going to have to look up mast hound and spin! Do you have any pics of your set up? We are very interested in seeing other peoples modded set ups!

Couldn't get to this until I was on my work computer, where my pics are kept. Here's what I did for a spinnaker halyard, which is similar to what most others with an have done. The hound is the same as the original, and can be bought complete from http://www.bwyachts.com for very little money. I mounted it 18" above the jib halyard.

You may find it useful for mast raising, too, if you're using a different furling jib setup that actually uses the jib halyard. Mine doesn't so it's free all the time, but if you use one of the other furlers Judy is recommending and leave the head sail on when raising the mast, the halyard will have to stay attached to the sail, so it won't be available for the gin pole. You can use the spinnaker halyard for raising the mast then.

In the pic below, the spinnaker halyard should have been run through the jib halyard hound on the inside, so it doesn't rub on anything. The outside half, of course, runs free, outside everything. It's since been corrected. I leave the working leg attached to the bow rail when not in use. The forestay is detached in this picture, for transport. One of these days, I'll come up with a quick, neat way to hold the furler when the mast is down. Just haven't done it yet.

[Tomfoolery]

Which, thinking about it, brings up another subject.

If the new furler needs the jib halyard, it presumably attaches to the top bearing. Usually, the halyard has to have some fleet angle to the bearing, and can't pull straight along the forestay line. That means either a block that's not attached to the hound, or a fairlead that's attached to the mast. Either way will put some angle between the forestay/furler line of action and the halyard.

You might want to discuss the potential need for rigging changes with Judy before you get too far, as it would be a drag to plan on a simple installation just to find out you need to make rigging modifications, also.

This is what my last boat had for a jib halyard. Notice the sheave a bit lower than the forestay termination (halyards are internal, with thru-deck style blocks at the top). Sail was off when this was taken. Look around your marina, and you'll see most boats have some sort of arrangement to open some angle between the halyard and the top bearing of the furler. The sheave and loop above are for the spinnaker halyard, which is a different animal.

[Whipsyjac]

Concerning Heeling,

Get a clinometer, its an angle indicator with a curved glass(like a smile) and a ball. You mount it level on the hatch slider or bulkhead. Mine came with my bulkhead compass. Knowing the angle will bring confidence. Heeling will go from "feels scary" to "hey honey a couple more degrees and this boat will really perform". At first 10deg is scary and you're thinking its 45. The optimum heel (supposedly) for windward sailing in an is supposedly 15 to 20 degrees. I love the videos since in my experience I've been passed by sailors who trusted their boat more (especially in Lasers) where I'm too timid. My wife and I love running a Laser with the lee gunnel under, but I sincerely doubt we'll try it with our .

Willy

[Russ]

RussMT, thanks so much for the explaination, tips and the picture! Pictures really help!
As for the heeling....I hear about people having knockdowns and there seem to be may MAC owners that fear capsizing, or maybe I am imagining it. That's why I thought it could happen. Is it really that hard to fill it with water and capsize?! Everytime we heel too much, I just envision everything filling with water, and me being trapped under somehow. I'm sure reading about those rare accidents in MACs didn't help much....
I almost hate to say it....but this boat makes me feel a bit unsafe. Maybe because it's new to me. I never felt unsafe in any of my previous boats, I know they were powerboats, and all that....but yes, it's always worse case scenario for me. Like, maybe the ballast has a malfunction, etc. I'm CONSTANTLY checking. This is coming from a VERY good swimmer who has practically grown up on the water. Perhaps I am getting fearful with age....LOL! Thanks for the explanation though, I am going to trust you and tell myself that it's OK next time Bryan makes the darn thing heel more than I like....

A boat healing does not feel natural. Let's face it, our portable "house" is tilting and that is disturbing for most people. It's not rocking, but tilting like it's going to turn over. So don't feel bad for your natural reaction to it.
The best you can do is teach yourself that it's natural for a sailboat. Pushing the boat will also make you see it won't go over.

Think about what is making the boat heal. Wind is pushing on the sails sideways and pulling it over. Now what happens if the sail leans over? The wind has nothing to press against and the boat will not go further. Recently we had a near knock down. Winds were increasing very fast and we were running downwind. It was a blast doing over 7mph and feeling the power of the wind moving us. Then a strong gust hit us and my son lost control and the boat turned sideways pulling us way over. Eventually the sail spilled the wind and was luffing violently. It scared my inexperienced crew which is understandable considering the noise and wind and the boat was healing WAY over. The boat came back up until the wind caught it again and the process went back and forth until the gust ended. As long as you have ballast, the boat will always come back up. The cabin companionway hatch is narrow so that IF the boat turns on its side, water can't flood the cabin. This is best illustrated by the photo below.

RE: Capsized boats
Those rare accidents are statistically EXTREMELY rare. How many Mac X/M's have capsized? I found one out of the 30,000 Macgregor boats out there and that one was captained by a drunk idiot who had 12 people on board, no ballast in the tank and decided it was a good idea to go full throttle at night with boards down. So when you look at those stats, this is one of, if not the safest boats on the market. That amazes me.
Actually, there was another, the captain was out in crazy winds and his inflatable got loose from the deck and was blown up into the rigging and pulled the boat over. He had no ballast and the boat stayed on its side. It was righted and lesson learned to keep ballast in.

--Russ

[bscott]

A parting comment concerning "tipping over." You can control the amount of tipping fear by YOU taking control of the main sheet and dumping the main as soon as you feel uncomfortable. There are lots of weather signs to be aware of for you to learn so you can anticipate shifting or high winds. Even the changing color of the water is a sign.

You've invested lots of boat bucks on top notch sails and rigging--now --find a professional sailing instructor and take some lessons without Brian.

Bob

[Catigale]

....or go sailing with my fearless 14 year olds this summer ....

[kevinnem]

Hey star - long time no talk. I have a recommendation for you on how to get over your fear of the boat healing over .... go sail a laser for a day After that it will feel solid as earth.

I am only joking a little bit here -- the reason most of us don't get worried about it is because most of us started with small boats - 1/2 person lasers, fireballs, and 420's ( I own a seaspray cat 15 foot myself) on these boats you ARE the ballast, and you get wet, and if she goes over, you have to pull her back up yourself. Most of us at some point got to ride on a larger boat, maybe a hobie cat, or a 18-21 foot something , like an enterprise. even those boats felt stable at the time. no with the 26 foot whales they feel pretty good to us, but only because of perspective.


PS if you have a sec go to youtube and watch some of the americas cup from this year, they have these really cool 45 foot cats they race that are SO fast. They also fall over from time to time.

Kev.

PS I hope to head out soon, about 10 days from now and that should be the final "check and fix" day. then I will be up and running - I have been having issue with my engine, but I am hopeing it is onl a serise of stupid mistakes, that will be worked out.

[Tomfoolery]

This is an awesome idea! I'm so afraid of doing it though....
I think it is a control issue....especially since I am such a control freak;-)
I just need to feel more comfortable with the sails and know EXACTLY what I am doing. I get the wind, I understand what to do, but I panic real easily! And then all the knowledge goes right out the window....ha ha!

I'm afraid I must insist.

If you want to spend money, a relatively cheap upgrade IMO would be to replace the main sheet fiddle blocks. With any load on them, it's hard to sheet in. The originals have plain (sleeve) bearings, and the sheaves don't roll easily. An inexpensive set of fiddle blocks with ball bearings would make a nice upgrade, and if you don't have a lot of arm strength, will make life much easier when it's your job to work the sheet. You'll also get a better feel for how hard the sheet is working, which loosely translates to how hard the wind is pushing on the sail and causing heel.

I don't like spending money on my boat (but really enjoy spending your money on your boat ), since as a general rule you don't get it back at resale, but those cheap-o blocks, which are the same as those on the vang and the mast raising gin pole*, just don't cut it for me. A set of fiddle blocks with rolling element bearings will make it much easier to control the main sail yourself, which in turn will build confidence since you can dump air and stand the boat up any time you want, then dump a little air and keep it at a mild heel angle, then play the sheet as required to keep it at the heel angle you want (with the hubby holding a steady course), and so on. You'll never develop confidence until you're in control, but eventually your anxiety will go away and a gust won't put your heart into your mouth, even if the sheet is in the jammer and you're just taking it all in on the high side.

Put on some sailing gloves with the fingers cut off, and grab that main sheet, and get that bad boy under control (the boat, not the hubby ).

* I replaced the OEM fiddle blocks on my mast raising gin pole, which are essentially the same blocks as the vang and main sheet but without a jammer, with a set of Harken Midrange blocks (3" sheaves, ball bearings) I had laying around. They're monsters compared to anything on a Mac, but I had them laying around looking for a job. Between going to 5 parts of line, and especially going to ball bearing sheaves, I can raise the mast with one hand, without using a winch. The difference between ball (or roller) bearing blocks and plain (sleeve) bearing blocks is huge, and is magnified as the load increases. You're feeling the load more than the friction.

Point being, for a control line with the potential for a lot of friction in those small sheaves (bending line around a small sheave has more friction than you might realize, too) and plain bearings, there just isn't much feel, and it takes much more effort to sheet in than it should. With a heavy load on the main sheet, the difference in effort or grip force required in your hand between sheeting in a little and letting it out a little is the friction in the system. Same sort of thing as disconnecting the outboard when under sail alone - the drag in the steering system is suddenly reduced a lot, and you actually have some feel for how the boat is sailing.

Blue Water Yachts has a replacement set with ball bearings for less than $100, but you can get similar, but better and more expensive, equipment from any of the major block manufacturers. I'm not much for replacing perfectly good equipment, but to me, upgrading one of only a couple primary controls on a boat is money well spent.

http://bwyachts.com/web%20catalog%20312 ... blocks.htm