E-tec Outboards

[deacm]

I haven't seen any postings here or in the new archives relating to Evinrude E-tec outboards that are the new quiet, low emmission, low weight, high fuel efficiency 2 strokes on the market. Can anyone tell me exactly HOW quiet, clean, low weight and efficient these things actually are? Any downside?

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

They claim they are more fuel efficient and as quiet as the 4 strokes. They meet all the current enviromental regs, even in Ca. They also all have great large alternators, bigger than any others for the same size motor I have seen.

I have my eye on the 115hp, 369 lbs with a 60 amp alternator. The Suzuki 70 4 stroke is 359 lbs with a 21.5 amp alternator.

[Mark Prouty]

These engines are exceptionally expensive. Because of cost, I did not investigate. If the price were competive - even justifibly more, they might be a good buy. Weight/HP. I bought a Suzuki.

p.s. I appreciated being informed of these engines before I purchased.

[Frank C]

I haven't seen any postings here or in the new archives relating to Evinrude E-tec outboards that are the new quiet, low emmission, low weight, high fuel efficiency 2 strokes on the market. Can anyone tell me exactly HOW quiet, clean, low weight and efficient these things actually are? Any downside?

I understand Deac's interest, since he's outfitting a new boat. One user of a high-tech TLDI 2-stroke wrote here that it required more maintainance that a woman! (sorry - too sexist?)

However (pardon my skepticism), I'll go out and buy a new 2-stroke once I've seen them proven in a run of a few hundred thousand cars or trucks. Until then ... I think 4-strokes are pretty well-proven for quiet, economical and reliable performance. I've never needed even a tune-up on my last three trucks, all leased, 40k to 50k miles on the original plugs. The last two never even saw the dealership again after delivery.

Neither has my Suzuki outboard, and I just don't see that the weight penalty of a 4-stoke is compelling enough to suffer the other risks of two-strokes .... reputations for fouling, noise and guzzeling.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Two stroke motors are every bit as reliable as four strokes, and are always the choice in any high power / light weight application. Every racing dirt bike and most recreational ones are two strokes, all high power snow mobiles are two strokes. The two stroke engines have been used in these applications far longer and more successfully than any four stroke motors.

Two stroke outboards are more proven that the four strokes which are the new kids on the block. They also win hands down in power per pound, and ease of maintenance. Wait til you see the bill for changing the oil in your four stroke Suzuki. Two stroke fuel consumption can now rival a four stroke, and they are almost, but not quite as quiet.

My Tohatsu 50, is the perfect example. In the 4 years I've now had it I have changed the plugs and the lower unit oil once, easy 10 minute low cost backyard jobs. It has never fouled it's plugs nor failed to start. Last fall I backed the boat into the yard and put the tarp on after our last outing, I did nothing to the motor at all just like all previous years. This last weekend we pulled it out and put it in the water for a trip. The Tohatsu started just like always on the first turn of the key. It's a no fuss, completely reliable motor.

Yes, it eats more gas than I would like (it's an older carbed version), and it's certainly not as quiet as a four stroke, but it is every bit as reliable as a four stroke.

[Mark Prouty]

I too hate to be a skeptic about the Evinrude E-tec outboards but I thought about purchasing an Evinrude 2 stroke Ficht outboard when they first came out a few years ago. I'm glad I didn't - Complaint 1 / Complaint 2. These were full of problems and numerous complaints. Envinrude does not sell them anymore because they were lemons. Could the E-tec be a modified reincarnation of the Ficht? The new E-tec might be the best engine ever, 311lbs/90hp, but I would also be concerned about new technology. In addition, my dealer quoted $8200 for a 90hp

A Quote:
OMCs two-stroke Ficht outboards have been plagued with problems since they were introduced in 1997 in response to Clean Air Act requirements to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. Ficht fuel injection technology was supposed to reduce emissions by 70% to 80% while increasing fuel efficiency, but early engines became fouled with abrasive soot when operated at low rpm levels. As a result, complete breakdowns occurred while engine hour meters were still registering in the single digits.

Many Ficht owners were sidelined as their engines went through repeated cycles of breakdowns, repairs, factory upgrades and breakdowns. Thousands of engines needed repairs, at a cost of about $1,000 each.

http://www.boatus.com/consumer/200225hpFichtFires.asp

On a different motor lemon topic - I bought a Briggs and Stratton 5hp 4 stroke last summer. Its first model year. It had so many problems that Briggs bought it back from me.

Boy, am I a doomsayer or what!

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I'd be curious what the Tohatsu TLDI 90 prices at. Bluewater has been selling TLDI 50 for a couple years and highly recomends them. The boat I was out on with one was much quieter than my carbed Tohatsu 50.

The 90hp weighs 314 lbs. It is a fuel injected 2 stroke just like the E-tec. It has all the same advantages, low weight/high power, fuel economy that matches the four stokes and low emisions that meet all the latest requirments.

[Chip Hindes]

Tohatsu/Nissan TLDI 90 $6519 + shipping & handling. It appears they won't sell it to you to install yourself so I'm not sure where you're shipping it to. Installation will be extra.

[Mark Prouty]

Tohatsu Outboards' technologically advanced TLDI (Two-stroke Low-pressure Direct Injection) system has already been honored width Motorboading Magazine's prestigious Editor's Choice Award 2001.

Looks like this motor has been around and proven itself.

Not sure though:

I understand Deac's interest, since he's outfitting a new boat. One user of a high-tech TLDI 2-stroke wrote here that it required more maintainance that a woman! (sorry - too sexist?)

quote:
Tohatsu/Nissan is confident enough in its product to offer a 3+1 year warranty on all 2003 or later TLDI engines. The first three years cover parts and labor for the engines major components, with the fourth year covering parts and labor for all TLDI related items. The TLDI engines meet or exceed the new 2006 Environmental Protection Agency regulations for reduced emissions and have a two-star California Air Resource Board rating, designating it as a very low emissions engine. With a manufacturers suggested retail price of $7,649, you can get a lightweight, eco-friendly, fuel-efficient transom rocket at a reasonable price. While Tohatsu may not now be a household name, expect that to change.

Review of Tohatsu TLDI 90 2-stroke:
http://www.boatingworldonline.com/News. ... 30&ID=3171

[Frank C]

The Suzuki 70 won that award in its first year in the market, 1997 I think. The Suzuki 50 won it two years later, also its first year.

Granted, the 2-stroke's benefit is in high-power, light-weight applications ... doesn't sound like a criterion I'd apply for a pontoon boat or a Macgregor. Anyway, Deac's question remains unanswered. As terrific as the new direct-injection motors are, and for their years of real-world testing, why are none represented among the 250 boats here?

I only saw one Mac owner reporting that he OWNS one, rather than WANTS one. That report was on Heath's older board, and the owner wrote specifically that he was sorry he ever spent the money on a TLDI. As I recall, his dissatisfaction was due to extreme demands for warm-up, shut-down and ongoing maintenance in order to remain in warranty.

FWIW, regarding fuel efficiency, I just noticed that Suzuki has formal boat tests linked for each of its models. The 4 tests of the Suzi 90 show mileage varies from 5 to 8 mpg, depending mainly upon weight of the boat. I think all of those boats are lighter than a loaded Macgregor (this is for the 90, remember).

And, FWIW, the above link to the TLDI 90 boat test shows that its WOT consumption is just a little worse than the Suzuki's. (8.5 gph @ 38 mph).

[Chip Hindes]

And, FWIW, the above link to the TLDI 90 boat test shows that its WOT consumption is just a little worse than the Suzuki's. (8.5 gph @ 38 mph).

Also, FWIW, WOT fuel consumption is not really much of an issue. The overall fuel mileage of the four strokes is inargruably better than that of the old carbureted two strokes, and yet at WOT they're not significantly different. It's at part throttle, optimum cruise and idle that the four strokes show significantly better mileage than the carbureted two strokes, and the same range where the TLDI two strokes show significantly better mileage than either the four strokes or carbureted two strokes.

It's interesting to hear someone say the TLDIs are significantly quieter than the carbureted two strokes, because there's no mechanical reason I can think of which would explain why this would be so. Also, I notice although the Nissan/Tohatsu websites tout the great mileage and low emissions, there's nary a word about noise. Being used to my own ear splitting Tohastsu, I'm truly impressed by how quiet are the Hondas and Suzies I've heard.

[HappiestCamper]

It's interesting to hear someone say the TLDIs are significantly quieter than the carbureted two strokes, because there's no mechanical reason I can think of which would explain why this would be so.

Perhaps the low pressure injection system dampens the noises compared to an open throated carb??

[Don T]

Hello:
There is quite a difference in complexity and reliability between high pressure direct injection and a low pressure direct injection systems. This may account for the varied experience and reports.
I recently had to visit my local Tohatsu dealer and he said that the TLDI motors only save 20 to 30 lbs over their 4 stroke competitors because the pumps and control gadgets add a lot of weight. They are supposed to have a smooth stable idle and quiet low speed operation. He did say that they are popular because they have more low end torque and a better hole shot. So I suppose ski boaters like em' but that did not compute as favorable for a mac to me. I would certainly like it if my Tohatsu was quieter but I'm not willing to remove a perfectly good 50hp motor and spend 5 grand to save a few db and gas while motoring. We motor so much less now as we prefer to sail with the wind and tide. There are still those long runs back up river after a days sail though.
Duane, do you have the filler under the seat? It makes quite a difference in how much sound gets into the cockpit.

[Chip Hindes]

Perhaps the low pressure injection system dampens the noises compared to an open throated carb??

Anything's possible I suppose, but I don't believe induction system noise is a significant component of two stroke noise; If it were, it would be easy to correct with an intake silencer.

The constant popping and missing of a two stroke at idle or "trolling speed" is one thing; I might actually buy the fact that a smoother idle would in itself be quieter. The fact is, it's at the higher speeds that the four strokes really shine.

I'm fairly certain the noise difference is primarily due to the fact the two stroke "fires" every rev (at least if it's running right ) while the four stroke fires every two revs. That's why I maintain the TLDI is inherently no quieter. I'm not an acoustic engineer though, so this is all pure conjecture.

[Frank C]

Well, at least it's nice to hear that somebody really has one. However, the 4-stroke Suzuki is still quieter, with better mileage. And, regarding the lighter weights, the TLDI 2-stroke weighs more than 90% of the Suzuki weights ....

TLDI 50...... 210 lbs.
Suzuki 50....238 lbs.

TLDI 70...... 314 lbs.
Suzuki 70....335 lbs.

Suzuki 4-strokes certainly have a long market run by now, and Suzuki is clearly responsible for having pushed the entire industry to the 3-year factory warranty. That fact, plus their free bonus extension to a six-year factory warranty is what sold me on Suzuki. Beauty is clearly in the eye of the beholder, eh?