Dismasted this past weekend.

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seahouse
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by seahouse »

Thank you for the responses.

I guess I am looking for a logical science-based reason for the line of thought that says an upsized diameter wire is a bad idea, because I have yet to see one. Other than the answer that I provided within the question itself - that it is the elasticity or “springiness” that is the principle advantage.

That is not to say that another explanation doesn’t exist, and maybe we will come across some evidence in the future?

In the physical world, 200 lbs of tension is, by definition, 200 lbs of tension, no matter what, a piece of fishing line, or a ½” diameter steel rod, is applying that tension. The old Italian proverb “Arithmetic is not an opinion” is appropriate to apply to this point.

If a given side-wise thrust at the mid-point were applied to the above two materials under tension, and, if “stiffness” were the qualitative difference under examination, then it would, in fact, favour, and not hinder, the heavier of the two – the steel rod. Like DaveB has witnessed in his forestay.

So, a pertinent question to ask now would be- how would these target tension numbers have been arrived at in the first place? :?:

I think it would be fair to say that Macgregor has built the boat to specifically designed pre-loads on each of the rigging points, ones that meet all its structural requirements. For example, as I mentioned before, aft-swept spreaders require a complex calculation of trigonometric force coupling that opposes the forestay tension.

We know what the owner’s manual “loosely” (sorry, bad pun :cry: ) suggests for tension, (for those of us who have read it) and it seems to indicate a preference for a somewhat lower tension than would be a standard operating procedure elsewhere in the industry. Presumably, for a reason, whatever it might be.

We also know the diameter of the wire that the designers chose, it arrives from the factory with the boat, and so from that can calculate the design tension in pounds (approximately, from the percentage of breaking strength, as previously discussed).

The reason that the rigging tension happens to be specified in percentage of breaking load is that it allows the wire to be tensioned with an easily-defined safety margin for absorption of shock loading without failure. And wire is sold with this specified breaking strength.

And now that we have arrived at the design target tension range in pound units, we should be able to be easily attain it by a larger diameter wire tensioned to that same tension, measured in pounds, but at what would be a lower percentage of its breaking strength. And it would provide a larger margin of safety before failure from snatch loads. How can that be a handicap?

Unless, of course, elasticity is a prime consideration. :|

- Brian. :wink:
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by seahouse »

Hey Leon :D – Good test- cranking up the jib halyard tension (temporarily) would also increase the tension on the top shrouds – and I don’t think there would be any danger of over-tensioning them either. And of course jib shape would go south. But it would be the equivalent of adding more forestay tension and maybe removing some sag.

Hey Sum :D – I like the repeatable indexing of the Johnson lever. Gotta check those out.

Hey Cat :D – Get your point – but someone (sometimes me!) will always find a way to do even simple things wrong and mess up. We’re just assuming the tensioning is done right as mentioned.

Hey John :D – I can tell you’re a member of the Society of Redundancy Society!

- Brian. :wink:
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by seahouse »

Hey Viz :D – Sorry ‘bout that :cry: my apologies.
-Brian. :wink:

Bump…

by vizwhiz » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:11 pm

Sorry to hear about the dismasting...never a good thing!

Back to an earlier part of the thread please...
My spreaders (95 S) are the swinging type, which I'm assuming mean that they are just pinned with a vertical bolt at the inner end and can swing back-and-forth. (Mine swing back-and-forth when I'm putting the mast up and are not "fixed".)
If this is not good, and I need to upgrade, are the new brackets/sockets available on BWY for all boats? Was this a problem only for the X boats?
And for those who have the older boats, did everyone upgrade theirs, or are there some of you who still have the swinging spreaders and have not had problems?
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by mastreb »

seahouse wrote:I guess I am looking for a logical science-based reason for the line of thought that says an upsized diameter wire is a bad idea, because I have yet to see one. Other than the answer that I provided within the question itself - that it is the elasticity or “springiness” that is the principle advantage.

That is not to say that another explanation doesn’t exist, and maybe we will come across some evidence in the future?

In the physical world, 200 lbs of tension is, by definition, 200 lbs of tension, no matter what, a piece of fishing line, or a ½” diameter steel rod, is applying that tension. The old Italian proverb “Arithmetic is not an opinion” is appropriate to apply to this point.

If a given side-wise thrust at the mid-point were applied to the above two materials under tension, and, if “stiffness” were the qualitative difference under examination, then it would, in fact, favour, and not hinder, the heavier of the two – the steel rod. Like DaveB has witnessed in his forestay.

So, a pertinent question to ask now would be- how would these target tension numbers have been arrived at in the first place? :?:

I think it would be fair to say that Macgregor has built the boat to specifically designed pre-loads on each of the rigging points, ones that meet all its structural requirements. For example, as I mentioned before, aft-swept spreaders require a complex calculation of trigonometric force coupling that opposes the forestay tension.

We know what the owner’s manual “loosely” (sorry, bad pun :cry: ) suggests for tension, (for those of us who have read it) and it seems to indicate a preference for a somewhat lower tension than would be a standard operating procedure elsewhere in the industry. Presumably, for a reason, whatever it might be.

We also know the diameter of the wire that the designers chose, it arrives from the factory with the boat, and so from that can calculate the design tension in pounds (approximately, from the percentage of breaking strength, as previously discussed).

The reason that the rigging tension happens to be specified in percentage of breaking load is that it allows the wire to be tensioned with an easily-defined safety margin for absorption of shock loading without failure. And wire is sold with this specified breaking strength.

And now that we have arrived at the design target tension range in pound units, we should be able to be easily attain it by a larger diameter wire tensioned to that same tension, measured in pounds, but at what would be a lower percentage of its breaking strength. And it would provide a larger margin of safety before failure from snatch loads. How can that be a handicap?

Unless, of course, elasticity is a prime consideration. :|

- Brian. :wink:
Brian, you got it in one: elasticity is a prime consideration. Larger diameter wire is more elastic at the same rated tension, and so it allows more movement of the mast than the masts other components are rated to withstand. Think of the stays as rubber bands (because that's essentially what they are). A "fat" rubber band is going to be a lot more loose and elastic at the same tension than a skinny one, and therefore will not actually provide as much "stay" or resistance to lateral forces as a tighter, smaller stay. It's not the stays that are going to break, it's the mast or mast foot when too much movement is allowed (exactly as happened in this thread). To get the same tightness (elasticity) on a larger stay, you have to tension it more: to that magical 15% of rated capacity where the elasticity is correct. The problem is that this puts a lot more tension on the chain plates, deck, and fittings. It also fails to completely mitigate shock loading because of the increased elasticity.

On these particular boats, you've got a lot more leeway with the headstay in terms of size because the mast can accommodate fore and aft movement without failing necessarily, but you will find you've got a slacker headstay with a pronounced bend to leeward under sail because its not as tight at the same tension. Over tensioning means moving the mast forward out of the optimal mast angle, unless you've also got a backstay to counter that (I don't use a backstay personally).

The best bet is to use the equipment the boat was engineered for in most cases.
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by delevi »

Mastreb, you nailed it on the head. Good rubber band analogy. It is for this reason that a larger boat using say 5/16" stays needs much more than 300 lbs tension; more like 1500 lbs, otherwise you can lose the rig. I would disagree on the point of shock loads being not mitigated. I believe they in fact are mitigated when the appropriate static tension is set for the rigging. Cables stretch and that static load will take most of the stretch out of them. A properly tuned rig should not be subjected to much shock loading.

Leon
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by DaveB »

Sumner, You just have to experance it, You do a lot of Engineering new systems as I cruise. Matter who choses there way of Sailing.
You are great for what you do and give exellent ways to modify the Mac. and we are all greatfull.
Time you just kick back and do some Island cruises . :)
Dave

.............and then there is Dave...
DaveB wrote:....I tune a Mac. from 45 years of Sailing, don't use gauges and it's just sea knowledge sense.
Dave
I'll have to live to about 110 to be able to say that :o , don't think that is going to happen :( ,

Sum

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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by Sumner »

DaveB wrote:....Time you just kick back and do some Island cruises ....
Hey I'm for that, but that has always been hard to do.

The last 12-14 months has been tough on Ruth with 6 operations and some major dental work. Nothing real serious at this time thank goodness, but the last eye operation and how she has to care for that eye will probably mean no Bahama trip for us. We will be able to enjoy Florida and the Keys and other places with the Endeavout as long as we stay close to the states. Also lakes in the west with the Mac, but will need to stay within a day or so of a good doctor with both boats.

There will be plenty of places to go so life is still good for us. Another 4-6 weeks work on the Endeavour and I think she will then be like the Mac, just some yearly upkeep. Then back to work on the race car and re-doing my truck. Florida probably once a year and take the Mac out on some trips out west a couple times during the summer/fall.

I will say that if any of you guys have things you really want to do, do them before something else gets in the way,

Sum

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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by DaveB »

Sorry to hear Ruth has had health problems, I know what that means to you ! I to had a bad experance taking my family out on my boat to fill the waters ofshore of Ft. Myers Beach with my Fathers Ashes.
Only to have my engine over heat and put them miles away.
Had 7 people aboard, had to open outboard cover, trouble shoot, disconnect water/oil sensors to idle back to dock.
I know now what it feels to let others down.
Have Faith in Ruth as I know she has it in you.
I hope she recovers to Sail once again, and you also.
Dave

Sumner wrote:
DaveB wrote:....Time you just kick back and do some Island cruises ....
Hey I'm for that, but that has always been hard to do.

The last 12-14 months has been tough on Ruth with 6 operations and some major dental work. Nothing real serious at this time thank goodness, but the last eye operation and how she has to care for that eye will probably mean no Bahama trip for us. We will be able to enjoy Florida and the Keys and other places with the Endeavout as long as we stay close to the states. Also lakes in the west with the Mac, but will need to stay within a day or so of a good doctor with both boats.

There will be plenty of places to go so life is still good for us. Another 4-6 weeks work on the Endeavour and I think she will then be like the Mac, just some yearly upkeep. Then back to work on the race car and re-doing my truck. Florida probably once a year and take the Mac out on some trips out west a couple times during the summer/fall.

I will say that if any of you guys have things you really want to do, do them before something else gets in the way,

Sum

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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by Sumner »

DaveB wrote:...Have Faith in Ruth as I know she has it in you.
I hope she recovers to Sail once again, and you also........
She is fine and she will be fine, we just have to be sure to be near where we can get medical in a day or two if we need it. The situation is not life threatening but critical to her eyesight and we don't want to take any chances there.

We should be down that way in mid-late Jan. Hope to catch up with you this trip. Maybe meet at Pelican or down by Captiva? Oh and BTW she is the best thing that ever happened to me and sorry to hear about your deal,

Sum

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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by Divecoz »

Sumner I know a GREAT Dr. IN St Croix.. OK OK he's my nephew but he is a great Dr. and a Great Guy and ...... a SAILOR!
Best To Ruth ...
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by seahouse »

Mastreb wrote
“Larger diameter wire is more elastic at the same rated tension, and so it allows more movement of the mast than the masts other components are rated to withstand.”
Although it’s been repeated often enough here, I believe this to not be the case. And, this is the opposite to what I had in mind when I suggested elasticity/ shock absorption as one possible reason for not upsizing wire. A larger diameter wire will in fact be less elastic than a smaller diameter wire, when they are both loaded with the same pounds of tension.

When pondering this, it might be easier to envision if the extremes are considered. As I mentioned above, compare fishing line, and a ½” diameter steel rod. Which one is less elastic, and which one is less likely to bow under lateral forces? The ½” diameter steel rod, of course.

In suggesting the elasticity factor, I was presenting the idea that the larger shrouds would be less able to cushion shock loads. Because they are less shock absorptive, they would transmit the shock loads to the supporting attached structures, which, if that were the way it happens, would be a bad thing.

- Brian. :wink:
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by Catigale »

The elasticity of a wire is not a simple function of the tension, so the comparison of two different thicknesses of wire has to be done at a given specific tension, not just the same.

Reasoning by extremes..

The 1/4 inch shroud at 300 pounds is relatively inelastic, while a one inch shroud would be floppy...

At 3000 pounds tension, the elasticity trend would be reversed...

Recapping

If one believes fatigue failure is your enemy, there is little benefit to upsizing the forestay on a power sailor. If you are cruising there is a stores benefit that you only have to carry one size and length of spare rigging. Improperly tensioning and most notably using the same tension increases your risk of fatigue failure.

If tensile failure is the enemy, then going to 5/32 with 50 % more tension wins the day.
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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by delevi »

Brian, I think you have it backwards. To eliminate shock load you need no movement, not elasticity or cushion which allows for movement. It's not a question of what size wire is better. You need the right size for the specific application. The more powerful the rig, the thicker the cable requirement to support it... simple enough. The thicker the cable, the more force is required to make those cables tight which means the hull structure must be built to withstand those forces... and so the engineers figure out what's appropriate for the boat they're building. I fail to see what point you're debating here.

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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by Sumner »

Catigale wrote:Recapping

If one believes fatigue failure is your enemy, there is little benefit to upsizing the forestay on a power sailor. If you are cruising there is a stores benefit that you only have to carry one size and length of spare rigging. Improperly tensioning and most notably using the same tension increases your risk of fatigue failure.

If tensile failure is the enemy, then going to 5/32 with 50 % more tension wins the day.
...........and recapping from the other side of the room :wink:

forestay's are probably fatiguing and breaking from not enough tension on the stock ones and from not using toggles when needed with a furler.

Yes we do carry rigging wire with us, 5/32 for our forestay or Shrouds, but I really think we will never need it.

If you do like the the idea of a 5/32 forestay you don't have to tension 50% higher. 300 lbs. will suffice or at least it sure has for us. Also a larger forestay is not a replacement for toggles. Still run those.
Catigale wrote:..Improperly tensioning and most notably using the same tension increases your risk of fatigue failure.
Cat if the above is referencing the use of a 5/32 forestay where is your evidence where that has been the case. Who has had a failure? I'd still like to have someone explain why the shrouds that are 5/32 don't have to have all of that tension and why 5/32 forestays are not breaking? The shrouds are loaded and unloaded more than the forestay and can go from very little tension on the lee side to a lot after a tack.

The main thing is keep the whole rig tensioned to where the mast is not pumping around and it wants to do this athwartships more so than fore/aft.

Oh and in case anyone has forgotten this thread started with a broken mast and not a forestay :wink: ,

Sum

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Re: Dismasted this past weekend.

Post by delevi »

I switched to 5/32 on the forestay. Consequently, it sagged more than the 1/8. I compensated for this since I had a backstay rigged. Otherwise the 5/32 would require more shroud tension if you want the boat to point reasonably well.

Toggles: Absolutely. Mine didn't come rigged with a top toggle. Noticed damage to the forestay at the very top and had to replace. Not sure if it was from lack of a toggle or a kink caused from transport with the furler pulling on the cable. It looked like the top of the furler was cutting through the cable. Glad I caught it when I did. I found it sadly amusing that the CDI manual makes a big deal about how imperative it is to have toggles, yet the boat was rigged without it.
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