Vang and Traveller

[THE CUSCUS]

Here's my take on a dual mainsheet rig: http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1402
It was done mostly to get the operation of the mainsheet forward of the helmsman and up high so you aren't fiddling with it down at your knees or behind you. This setup gives you the choice of using either side on either tack or both at the same time (it is one continuous line). Nothing has to be "moved" or "removed" when tacking, just tack and use the sheet on the windward side. It will not act as any kind of preventer though. In my opinion, a traveller for a boat this size is an un-needed piece of hardware that untimately takes away much needed space. With a good boom vang and vang sheeting technique, one can do just as good.

[Judy B]

I have a very "Stock" MacGregor 26s. 1991. I am the second owner. I have attachment points for a boom vang. I also am finding that I could be pointing about 5 degrees higher if I had a traveller. Anyone with experience on this boat: with and without vang or with and without traveller?

I am dialing in my sail trim and sheeting. My question is, are these controls worth the extra lines/bother/maintenance?

There have been a lot of suggestions here about rigging replacements for a vang and a traveller. What I'd like to emphasize is the reason most boats have a vang and a traveller. The two controls are used in concert to controll the tension on the leech of the mailsail, which in turn controls the twist. The mainsheet is, of course, the most obvious way of controlling the angle of the boom off-centerline (but it has the unintended effect of also affecting vertical rise of the boom and twist).

I personally think a dedicated vang is an essential piece of equipment. It's the primary control of twist on all points of sail and it's an easy thing to rig on every boat.

If your boat doesn't have a traveller,or if there isn't room for one in the cockpit, there are lots of almost-as-good substitutes that folks have devised over the last hundred years or so. But, IMO, the traveller is the most versatile and effective. You can almost always figure out a way to add a traveller on the transom of a boat,( although it does interfere with swimming off the stern! )

As long as you have a way to contol twist, you're going to sail better, IMO. I personally believe it's good to be able to have two separate controls for the following because they interact (combine as two separate vectors acting on the boom) . I haven't had any experience sailing with two mainsheets, but I've had a lot of experience sailing with vangs, with and without travelers.



Upwind in fully powered up winds:The two most important guides for trimming a mainsail upwind are to keep the boom near or on the center line of the boat, and the second batten down (on a four batten main) parallel to the boom. At this point, the leech telltale at back of the 2nd batten should flow. If it doesn’t, you should twist the sail off more by easing the sheet and pulling the traveler further to windward (or the equivalent adjustment).

Upwinds fine tips: A slightly tighter leech (less twist) allows the boat to point higher, but requires more careful steering or else you will stall the top of the mainsail and slow down and slide sideways n the water. If the 2nd batten telltale stalls before the lower ones, you need more twist.

Reaching Downwind in moderate winds: Off the wind, the best rule is to keep the top or second batten down (3 or 4 batten main, respectively) parallel to the boom. Since the boom is further out from the centerline, the downward pull of the standard mainsheet is less effective, so a traditional vang is useful.

Running Downwind: The standard mainsheet is eased to let the boom far out. The vang helps control oscillations when following waves roll the boat. It really keeps the boom from bouncing up and down and the sail slatting as the boat rolls.

In choppy water or gusts, upwind and reaching,
A little more twist is desirable to avoid stalling and to keep the boat heeled at a constant 15 or 20 degrees. A little more twist is good for accelerating. In really puffy winds, if I have to stay on a specific course, I prefer to let the traveler in and out aggressively to control heeling without drastically changing the shape of the wing (mainsail). If I'm free to change course slightly with each gust, I prefer to steer higher in the gusts and follow the apparent wind angle as it changes. Steering higher in the gusts gives the boat a "lift"

Weather helm

If the rudder starts to load up, and you are steering hard to keep the boat from rounding up, or heeling too much, ease the boom downwind to decrease the angle of attach and reduce power.


The mechanics of controlling twist in the mainsail: You have to control two things separately: how high the boom-end can rise in the vertical plane, and how far off center-line the boom can move in the horizontal plane.

1) vertical boom control: how high the boom can rise, which controls the tension on the leech and the twist in the sail. Vertical boom control is the traditional role of the vang (corrected on edit). it maintains constant vertical angle of the boom.
2) horizontal boom control: how far off center the boom can go. This is the traditional role of the traveler, when used with a vang which constrains the booms ability to lift up. Easing the traveller changes the angle of attack to the wind, with negligible effect on sail twist/leech tension/vertical boom position. (added on edit)
2.1) If you want more twist in the sail without moving the boom further outboard ,ease the vang a bit and pull the traveler to windward a bit. The boom will stay in the same horizontal angle, but the clew of the mainsail will rise, inducing more twist-off in the upper part of the sail
2.2) If you want to reduce twist in the mainsail, tighten the vang a bit to pull the clew down, and ease the mainsail a bit.

I'm writing this off the top of my head, so I apologize in advance for any errors, typos, etc. I'll try to fix them later, if I catch them. As always, I invite others to point out any errors or omissions I've made. I'm counting on y'all !

Fair winds,
Judy B
Sailmaker

[Sumner]

...There have been a lot of suggestions here about rigging replacements for a vang and a traveller. What I'd like to emphasize is the reason most boats have a vang and a traveller. .....................I'm writing this off the top of my head, so I apologize in advance for any errors, typos, etc. I'll try to fix them later, if I catch them. As always, I invite others to point out any errors or omissions I've made. I'm counting on y'all !

Fair winds,
Judy B
Sailmaker

Thanks , copied all of that down, now just need to practice it,

Sum

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[mastreb]

To add to Judy's post, one of the big reasons I like using the boomkicker is that it makes vertical boom control very simple: The boomkicker pushes the boom up, and the vang is used to pull it back down. With it, you can create more twist in very light airs than the vang alone could produce, and hold the shape of the sail precisely in any just about any wind. I find it much easier to use than a topping lift since there's no adjustment necessary at all and nothing to think about except the vang.

The other big reason is that it keeps the boom and mainsail off the cabin top and doesn't complicate the mast rigging or stepping.

A simple trick to making the traveller easy to move to windward is to uncleat the mainsheet and hold it in one hand while you move the traveller. You can control its tension as you move the traveler to windward that way.

On a beam reach, the boat is most subject to gusty heeling in inconsistent winds. Control this by uncleating the main and keeping tension on it by hand. Pulling the mainsheet with a constant resistance, allowing it to slip in a gust but pull back immediately when the air lightens up can keep the boat on a rock-solid heel and thereby prevent the helm hunting that kills speed on these boats. If a sudden blow comes a long, it may pull the mainsheet out of your hand but it won't knock the boat around. This is a great way to calm down those who aren't used to heeling and to make the boat feel quite a bit less tender. The stock 4:1 purchase mainsheet gives sufficient relief to to this in light to medium airs to do this and a 5:1 purchase can handle medium to moderately heavy airs. I've been considering a way to make a spring-tensioned cleat that can automatically keep a set tension on the mainsheet to automatically handle gusts.

I also keep the mainsheet draped over the throttle on the helm at all times so I can control the angle of attack constantly while I'm at the helm. When the heel of the boat changes, the helm has to change to compensate, which causes constant course correction and kills speed. Reacting quickly by changing the angle of attack on the mainsheet works better than using the helm to compensate for heel in all respects. It's probably the simplest thing you can do to immediately improve the sailing of a MacGregor.

I also have the base block of my mainsheet on a 1' long rope attached to the traveller so the entire mainsheet is off the deck and the control line is raised up to a level that I can easily uncleat it from the helm. This has been a big improvement in my ability to control the mainsheet at all times, and it gets the mainsheet out of the way of the companion way and off the seats. It's a very simple mod--just a short rope with two bowline knots at each end, one through the traveler's pad eye and the other through the block on the bottom of the mainsheet. Helps a lot.

[tomchitecture]

I am the guy who originally posted. I want to thank all of you who have presented a range of options. I really like Sum's solution. It is sort of a "soft traveller." I also like the double main sheet. In the end, the final solution may be the standard traveller because I would like to keep the force on the boat similar to what the boat is designed for.

Upwind in heavy winds, I noticed that moving my main sheet to windward reduced heel, produced more lift and allowed me to point higher.

The vang is more essential for my boat on downwind runs so I can relax the leech a bit more.

These controls are being added because I feel like I have exhausted what is possible with the limited controls that I have. I have a new set of Doyle custom sails coming and wanted to make sure I did everything I could to get the performance I desired, but I also believe that the proper controls help the sails retain their shape over time.

I race yachts for distance races and it is an entirely different animal. There, you can be on a tack for 3 hours and you have infinite time to dial in. I got used to that and missed it on my home boat.

Thank you all again for your considered responses.

[Catigale]

A 26S is a smokin' fast boat compared to the power sailors,so those controls will be useful indeed. On my boat, with me at the helm... ...it would be like putting fuzzy dice in a Rolls...

[robbarnes1965]

Here's my take on a dual mainsheet rig: http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1402
It was done mostly to get the operation of the mainsheet forward of the helmsman and up high so you aren't fiddling with it down at your knees or behind you. This setup gives you the choice of using either side on either tack or both at the same time (it is one continuous line). Nothing has to be "moved" or "removed" when tacking, just tack and use the sheet on the windward side. It will not act as any kind of preventer though. In my opinion, a traveller for a boat this size is an un-needed piece of hardware that untimately takes away much needed space. With a good boom vang and vang sheeting technique, one can do just as good.

That's pretty awesome. I had thought of doing a similar mod after seeing that setup on the new Jeanneau 44DS at last year's boat shows. Getting the traveler out of the cockpit has it's benefits. With my Roller reefing main I have too many lines on the boom already. Might have to consider running line inside the boom if I go that route.

[Sumner]

...Getting the traveler out of the cockpit has it's benefits..

One advantage to the traveler is that with the main sheet going down to the traveler at a better purchase angle it will hold the the boom down much better on anything but running than I would think the twin travelers would. With twin travelers and there bad angle to the boom I would think that the vang would have to be used at times when it wouldn't be needed with the traveler if you want the boom down,

Sum

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[robbarnes1965]

I have never tried the system as described by CUSCUS or what looks like the same system on the Jeanneau http://www.cruisingworld.com/gallery/sa ... nid=371025 but I think it differs from a dual traveler. It does have some pretty cool advantages of being out of the cockpit and the resulting double mainsheet allows running the mainsheet on either side of the cockpit and the option of trimming on either side. I make due fine with the stock traveler on my M though. I would not mind having one with a better ratio though. It's hard to adjust if the main is sheeted in hard.

[Judy B]

I have never tried the system as described by CUSCUS or what looks like the same system on the Jeanneau http://www.cruisingworld.com/gallery/sa ... nid=371025 but I think it differs from a dual traveler. It does have some pretty cool advantages of being out of the cockpit and the resulting double mainsheet allows running the mainsheet on either side of the cockpit and the option of trimming on either side. I make due fine with the stock traveler on my M though. I would not mind having one with a better ratio though. It's hard to adjust if the main is sheeted in hard.

The mainsheet system on the Jeanneau 44DS is very different from other systems described in this thread. Those other systems can pull the boom above the centerline, towards the wind, while simultaneously letting the boom rise. That increases the twist in the sail.

The arrangement on the 44DS looks to me like it a variation on a common feature, a double ended mainsheet. A double ended mainsheet has an end running down each side of the boat so that the mainsheet can be trimmed while you stand at either of the twin steering wheels.

the variation is that there two blocks position on the on the cabin top, athwartships from each other and forward of the companionway slider. If I am interpreting the vector forces correctly, these two blocks are positioned so that they limit the amount of twist in the mainsail when the boat is on a reach. The off-center position creates a vectored forces which limits the height to which the boom can rise when the boom is let out (when compared to a block positioned on the center line)

But then again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not seeing the complete deck hardware.... maybe I need new glasses
Click on the photo below for a larger image.

Fair winds,
Judy B
Sailmaker

[robbarnes1965]

I actually really do like being able to adjust the boom toward/away from the wind. I am forever trying to squeeze an extra 1/10th of a know out. I figure that floating condo probably does not go for too much precision But I am always trying to figure out improvements for the Mac. Winter is too long...

[tomchitecture]

I love my 26S. Had I to do it all over again, the only thing I would change is to buy the 26D. Simpler system and no CB trunk. Plus I would have a foil to mess with in the off season.