Bottom paint with Hammerite????

[royntracey]

Hi all

Our Mac's coming up to needing a bottom paint,
and, as newbies to boating,
and, after reading a lot of horror stories about the cost,
difficult application of bottom paints,
I did wonder about the use of Hammerite (you know, the hammer finished stuff, found on fences and gates all over) as a possibility.
What do you think?
Would it work?
Or should I just stick to using it on my garden gate?

Roy and Tracey

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

hammerite doesn't have any "anti-fouling" properties...
or does it?
if your painting just for looks (i.e. always kept out of the water), hammerite will be fine.
but, if your painting for anti-fouling purposes...a waste of time.

[royntracey]

Hi Bobby

I don't know about "anti-fouling" but I first thought about this after I cleared the garden of junk, I pulled a couple of bits of metal from a puddle and, one was covered in green slime (not painted) the other had no slime/gunk at all on it, this one had been painted with Hammerite by someone, don't know how long they'd been there, but if the previous owner was as much of a gardener as me, maybe a long time. Has anyone tried it, on a water kept boat??

Roy

[kmclemore]

...an old timer with his words of wisdom advised me. ...He said it was the greatest coating...Tri-Buellton Tin Paint. I asked him where you could get this paint, and he said: you might find it in a foreign paint store, but it was outlawed in this country. I said OH! OK then. The old timer then told me how he just goes to the paint store, and picks up several bottles of that Mildaside conditioner for painting inside walls subject to mold and dampness. I asked why, and he said: Because it is Tri Buellton Tin in condensed form. I used his potion.......

OK, what you have stated is simply wrong, both factually and environmentally, and you need to be stopped before you advise any other person.

I'm not a tree-hugging vigilante, but this is beyond the pale. That stuff was removed for a bloody good reason, and by continuing to use TBT (against the law) your are recklessly placing our once beautiful waters and wildlife even more at risk than they already are, and killing untolled amounts of sea life.

You and your elderly friend are directly killing our fish, oysters, scallops, dolphins and Lord knows what else, for generations to come. Crikey... why the h*ll do you think they've banned it?

Our lakes and rivers are a gift from God... the responsible boater treats them with love and care, never polluting needlessly.
===============================================

"Tributyl Tin (aka "Tributyltin", TBT)
This substance has been declared, by the California Department of Fish and Game, to be "the most toxic substance ever released in the marine environment." This substance, which can be toxic in concentrations as low as 50 parts per trillion in water, is found in marine paints and antifouling coatings."
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Tributyl tin (TBT) has been used as an anti-fouling biocide and as a fungicide in paints. It is a restricted use pesticide in the United States (Wisconsin,IPCM, Exits DNR).

Health Effects:

Ecological Effects: TBT is extremely toxic to aquatic life and is an endocrine-disrupting chemical that causes severe reproductive effects in aquatic organisms. TBT is extremely stable and resistant to natural degradation in water. Because of its chemical properties and widespread use as an antifouling agent, concerns have been raised over the risks it poses to both freshwater and saltwater organisms. January 5, 2004 EPA published in the Federal Register a final ambient acute and chronic water quality criteria document for tributyltin (TBT). Canada has been conducting research to characterize the occurrence, persistence and fate of TBT in the Great Lakes (EPA Binational Strategy Website, Exits DNR)
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"TBT and anti-fouling paints

Approximately 69% of marine vessels still receive applications of TBT (tributylin tin) containing antifouling paints (Ambrose, 1994 - Minch review p. 19.5). However, the UK introduced restrictions on certain paints in 1985 and in 1987 all uses of TBT preparations were prohibited excepting those paints with low concentrations used for commercial shipping (GESAMP, 1990).

Historically copper was the active agent in anti-fouling marine paints, but in the 1960s TBT was introduced and was found to be extremely effective in suppressing the growth of weeds and encrusting animals on ships. The use of TBT was not confined to marine vessels. Jetties and harbours were also treated and the use of anti-fouling paints containing TBT was common on salmon farms in the 1980s, when the fish cage structures and the nets were treated to prevent the growth of marine plants and animals.

Initially laboratory tests suggested that since it degrades quickly, any side effects would be minimal (GESAMP, 1990). Unfortunately, the substances in the paints can leach into the water and have a deleterious effect upon shellfish, salmon farms and the marine environment at very low concentrations. The first problems were encountered in France where oysters (Crassostrea gigas) began to show serious shell deformations and the spatfall of this species and of the European Flat Oyster (Ostrea edulis) was seriously reduced (GESAMP, 1990). The problem was traced to the nearby marina and the large number of pleasure craft which were treated with TBT anti-fouling paints.

Oysters are not the only marine organism to be affected by TBT. Minchin et al (1987) carried out a study on the west coast of Eire on the possible effects of TBT on Scallop (Pecten maximus) recruitment. They found that the adult population of the scallop had declined in an area close to a salmon farm. This reduction and the associated dramatic decrease in recruitment was linked to the first introduction and subsequent increased use of organotin net-dips on salmonid farms.

Use of TBT was halted in 1985 and in 1986 settlement of scallops had increased. High levels of TBT were also found in other areas such as Cork Harbour, a major yachting centre. It was suggested that the reappearance of scallop settlements reflected the discontinuation of the use of organotin net-dips and the Irish ban on organotin antifouling paints in 1982. This is particularly relevant since the study area is comparable to the coastline of the Minch area with similar forms of aquaculture in place.

In 1987 DAFS (Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Scotland) carried out a study on the accumulation of tin and tributylin in muscle tissue of farmed Atlantic salmon. This was also related to the use of antifouling paints containing TBT applied to netting cages in Scotland. It was successfully demonstrated that salmon accumulate increased levels of tin in various organs when exposed to low concentrations of TBT in solution (Davies & McKie, 1987).

Fortunately, recent monitoring has shown significant drops in TBT levels in affected areas due to the UK ban on the product on vessels less than 25m. However, sites close to busy harbours such as Kyle of Lochalsh, Plockton, Stornoway and Kinlochbervie are still showing significant levels of TBT contamination (Hunter & Gillespie, 1992) There have also been calls by environmental pressure groups such as Greenpeace Scotland and the World Wide Fund for Nature UK Marine Program for a complete worldwide ban on TBT products in shipping. A statement from WWF said;

"The effect of these chemicals on marine wildlife has been reported for over 20 years and now we are seeing sea otters dying; dolphins and seals' lives are been poisoned." (Macfarlane, 1998 - Scotland on Sunday, Nov 1 p3)"

[kmclemore]

I did wonder about the use of Hammerite (you know, the hammer finished stuff, found on fences and gates all over) as a possibility.

Hi, Roy and Tracey -

I am very familiar with Hammerite, but I suspect many US folks are not as it is not a popular paint here - "Rustoleum" pretty much owns that market here in the States (but if you ask me it's a very poor substitute). Hammerite is an extremely effective barrier to corrosion when used on metals, but I doubt it will work terribly well as a bottom paint. After all, your hull isn't gonna rust!

Use Hammerite for metal - it's great at preventing rust - but use proper marine paints for your hull.

Simply put, there is no magic bullet when it comes to bottom paints... nothing lasts forever there, and repainting regularly with a high-grade approved marine barrier is the only solution.

[royntracey]

Thanks for the reply, I'll forget the "magic bullet" guess I was just being lazy/cheap, but I had to ask anyhow.
By the way I agree entirely about the poisoning of fish etc, I'd rather have no boat at all, than poison everything around.
thanks again.
Roy and Tracey

[kmclemore]

Ron & Tracey -

Hammerite is unlike any other paint you're probably used to, as it does not thin with paint thinner, white (mineral) spirits or cellulose (laquer) thinner. Instead, it uses a special trichloroethane 1.1.1 thinner, and for that reason it is not very popular in the States - indeed, many states have restricted the use of trichloroethane 1.1.1 making Hammerite unobtainable in in many areas. (Locally, it's still legal in New Jersey, but is not in Pennsylvania.) The paint contains ground glass in a viscous resin base.

Hammerite can be applied right over rusty metal and will key nicely and bond deeply with amazingly little preparation. The finish is glossy (they do make a 'satin' but I've never used it) and has a rippled and almost silicone-like finish which repels water very well. It's great for any metal you want to protect from the very worst of condtions. You probably have seen Hammerite on antique metal office furniture, appliances, or even some older foreign auto parts, particularly English bits... it lasts bl**dy ages and is highly resistant to chipping as well. It comes in a limited amount of colours, but the most popular are probably silver, blue and black.

It may be applied by spray or brush, but I prefer to brush as (1) the stuff is expensive so I hate to waste the overspray and (2) I want to reduce the amount of Trichloroethane 1.1.1 in the air wherever possible and (3) you can keep the cans longer on the shelf. Note: You absolutely *must* use a proper OSHA respirator if you spray this stuff... a dust mask will *not* do.

Hope that helps!

[mackatt68]

This site has some insights into blisters, including a $7,000.00 court case involving "hot coating", antifouling paint over uncured barrier coat that contradicts the old-timer's suggestion
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/BlisterRepairFail.htm

[Terry]

So, can I paint my trailer with this Hammerite stuff or is it going to leach into the water when I launch. It doesn't sound good for bottom paint but maybe it has a use for trailers, mines only two years old and rust is sneaking up on me. What are you guys doing to protect your trailers.

[Sloop John B]

I brush and spray my trailer with 'Extend'. It's some kind of automobile rust remedy. It doesn't seem to last and the rust comes back, right through the stuff. Even after wire brushing all the loose stuff off. The nuts on my license holder crunched in my fingers like an ash on the end of a cigar.

Years ago, when there were Coast to Coast stores, there was an inhibiter that went on white, turned dark blue, then black. It worked the way Hammerite has been described. There's got to be something out there.

[kmclemore]

So, can I paint my trailer with this Hammerite stuff or is it going to leach into the water when I launch.

Hammerite works great for trailers and once it's dry it's bascially inert and won't leech into the water... the problem is getting it to use - it's hard to find.

Actually, I usually prefer POR-15 as it's easier to get and lasts just fine.

[kmclemore]

I brush and spray my trailer with 'Extend'. It's some kind of automobile rust remedy. It doesn't seem to last and the rust comes back, right through the stuff. Even after wire brushing all the loose stuff off. The nuts on my license holder crunched in my fingers like an ash on the end of a cigar.

Years ago, when there were Coast to Coast stores, there was an inhibiter that went on white, turned dark blue, then black. It worked the way Hammerite has been described. There's got to be something out there.

SJB, Extend works fine, but it is only to be used to convert the rust... and as an undercoat. You *must* cover it with something once it dries, or else, as you observed, the rust will come right back. Use the Extend (or similar rust converter*) and then over-coat it with POR-15 (or Hammerite)... your trailer will be rust free for years if you do.

As far as the color goes, rust converters start out cream/white, and then turn black as it converts the rust - the more rust it converts, the darker it gets - no rust and it dries pretty much light tan.

(*Most of the rust converters are nothing more than 2-Butoxyethanol and Tannic Acid in a vinyl polymer base. There are loads of brands on the market, but they are all essentially the same stuff... buy the cheapest. But use gloves when applying it, as 2-Butoxyethanol is a glycol and as such is toxic.)