Water ingress into aft berth in 26M

[Andy1959]

This is my first post on this great forum. I keep my 26M in the water on a dock over the sailing season. I have often returned to the boat to find damp, well not damp really - wet - along the edges of the berth below the cockpit (gathering where the carpet-like lining of the hull walls reaches the base of the berth) I've search for where the water might be getting in, for example loose deck fittings, or damaged rub rail covering the deck-hull joint, but it remains a mystery to me. Anyone experienced the same problem?

[Catigale]

Andy - my guess is you are getting some ingress from the cockpit - check the bolts around the pedestal and make sure the sealer is in good shape. Water is really tricky to figure out where it comes from...best suggestion Ive seen here is too use talcum powder lightly, so that water tracks can be spotted.

welcome aboard !!

[Hardcrab]

Another place to look is where the steering linkage comes throught the hull on the port side.

[TAW02]

Another place to look is where the steering linkage comes throught the hull on the port side.

Thank you Mr Hardcrab for bringing that one up

This was an issue with my . Water would run along the steering bar and drip down inside the rear berth area. Usually collecting in the battery well and along the upper sill which would eventually dampon the wall carpet.

I setup a fix for that using pipe insulation and a plastic wire tie.



the finished installation. It is glued to the fiberglass using silicon sealant. Makes it easier to remove and replace as the pipe isulation dries out in the Florida sun.

However it did last 2 years before I replaced it with a pool noodle. Didn't need the plastic wire tie, however I am monitoring for the slightest leak and will use the plastic wire tie if I need to apply a 'wiping force' to the seal/bar area.



This is the pipe insulation I used. I just cut a short length to use as the seal (as seen above)



The pipe insulation is split so it's a piece-o-cake to install. Just peel off the sticky tape backing and press it together to form a good seal. Then gently pull a plastic wire tie around the seal's midsection like as if it were a trouser belt. Apply only enough pressure to ensure it will make the seal contact with the bar. Any more than this and it may pull the seal away from the fiberglass and you will have to do a do-over. Use a black plastic wire tie since they are color-coded for weather durability. A black one is the most durable in terms of UV and temps.

Finally, like I said ... I have found a swimming pool noodle (available at Walmart) that has a center hole diameter of 1'' inch very suitable for this application. Moreover it is designed out of a material that withstands water and extreme sun exposure. It is not split like the pipe isulation, so if you do not want to slit the noodle to slip it over the steering bar, just remove the link pin on the end and simply slip the noodle seal in place.

Good sir and welcome to the board
-tom

[kmclemore]

Tom, that is a GREAT fix for a well known issue with the Mac boats. Excellent!

Also, check your cables coming down from your engine's remote unit. They probably run down into the binnacle and through the cockpit sole underneath the binnacle. Water will often run down those cables and into the boat if you don't have them sealed to the sole with foam or similar flowing sealant.

[Crikey]

I just pressure washed my topsides for storage yesterday and, as usual, wasn't paying attention and blew about half a gallon of water through the rudder down haul holes in the stern deck. Rain at the dock can also do the same thing over time. The engine well through-holes are huge culprits as well.

Ross

[Andy1959]

Thanks guys! I guessed you had probably experienced this issue and would have these useful suggestions. I think the motor steering control bar is the most likely culprit as I have been checking the seal around the pedestal in the cockpit, especially as the previous owner installed a second conduit to carry instrumentation cabling through the cohadn't floor. I hadn't thought about the rudder up/downhauls though, another good one. The pipe insulation fix looks easy enough - great instructions. Thanks. Andy

[seahouse]

I just pressure washed my topsides for storage yesterday and, as usual, wasn't paying attention and blew about half a gallon of water through the rudder down haul holes in the stern deck. Rain at the dock can also do the same thing over time.

Hey Ross!

I did a pre-emptive strike on all three above mentioned leak points on my Mac before it ever hit the water. I have yet to post pix and a description of them, but one not mentioned here yet is the fix for the rudder down-haul holes.

I used two 2-litre Coke bottle tops cut into funnel shapes. I tried several brands, and the taper, shape, and neck dimension of the Coca-cola brand bottle was the most suitable. I ground the outside diameter of the threads and collar around the neck so as to be a hand-tight press fit onto the inside of the rudder down tubes. I intended to use a sealer, but a good fit made it unnecessary.

I found that the holes in the deck and the rudder pivot tubes were not in vertical alignment with each other (one side was close, the other side was quite a bit out). Also (from the factory) there was a tube (to “guide” the downhaul?) affixed at a haphazard angle from the inside top of the deck, meaning you need the wide funnel shape to catch the water unless you want to go to the work of fashioning a very customized flexible tube. Me? I’m lazy, so I went with the pop bottle funnel.

Now realize that the rudder pivot tube is, in essence, as it arrives from the factory, a stand pipe. If the water level outside the transom ever reaches that height for any reason (one example; beaching on a steeply sloped shore), your boat will at best, take on water, or at worst, quickly flood and swamp.

The funnel mod not only catches any water leaking down from the rudder downhaul hole, or drawn down by the wet downhaul, and funnels it back into the lake, but it also gives you several more extra inches of standpipe headspace before you potentially get swamped.

Note that I have installed a close-tolerance UHMW bushing on the rudder tube, and a urethane seal, so that no leakage will happen at these lower points, but only once the water level has passed them and reaches the top of the funnel.

For the steering rod, I made a floating urethane wiper/ seal. The requirements are critical because at the point of penetration the steering arm changes both its position on the wall of the fiberglass well, and the angle to it as the rod moves along its range of travel.

Also critical is its thickness, because the range of travel that the motor moves through (thus your steering angle) will be reduced when turning to port if there is more than 3/8” or so of thickness to it.

- Brian.

[Crikey]

Thanks for that Brian!

I had noticed an earlier mod (yours?) during my lurking days, before I got my Mac. Then I started mucking around with the whole steering assembly and put two large rubber bungees through each tube for an up-haul, and neglected to include this extra option. I think, after my misadventure yesterday, I will revisit this and try to see if it can be fitted into the clearances I have left. If not I will attempt to kluge something similar.
Your'e right on the money about factory clearances and alignments. Pretty disappointing really, when you consider a stack of dollar bills, for a Mac purchase, almost reaches to the moon! My idea for the engine steering link arm is to adapt some kind of accordion bicycle fork cover that can expand and contract with the arm, going through an enlarged hole. Shouldn't be to hard to track down something that will work.
Can you elaborate more on your UHMW (?) and urethane seal mod? With pictures?

Ross

[seahouse]

Ross -

I considered the "bellows" arrangement. Frought with complications, as you've no doubt pre-conceived.

I do plan on posting it this winter. If you PM me and give me your regular email address (I've found the forum PM to be not reliable) I will send you some pix, which will make it clearer. Although it looks lathe-made, I made most of it using different-size hole saws, but did resort to a lathe at one point. I realized that most people wanting to make their own might not have a lathe at their disposal, so I tried to stay as much as possible away from it.

A poly plate is also required on the backside, inside the boat (which also "floats"), and support bewteen the liner and the well is needed to prevent the stainless screws, which draws the two together, from compressing them.

UHMW (ultra high molecular weight) is just a quality (fairly common) commercial grade (in this instance "commercial" means "better") polyethylene plastic, and urethane is also a quality commercial "rubber", very durable. Whenever the opportunity arises, I keep small samples that are normally discarded by industry for just such applications. Great Lakes Plastics in Buffalo, already mentioned here by another poster, is a very receptive source for tinkerers and DIYers. I'm not sure if they carry urethane, though.

- Brian.

[pha]

Can anyone clarify what the "rudder down-haul holes" are, and whether these could be an issue on a 26x?

I've looked at my rudder mounts as closely as possible, and I don't see anything that looks like a stand-pipe or tube. Each rudder has an aluminum or stainless square U-shaped mounting bracket screwed into the transom, with a pivot pin to hold the rudder, but that's about it. I've sprayed many gallons of water from a hose under pressure all over that area, and nothing seems to be leaking any more. Earlier I did find a couple of small leaks in the seam between the transom and the deck, but I sealed those up already.

The reason I ask is because the original posting and the reply seem similar to my situation, which is that the boat is completely dry 90% of the time while under sail or power, but every time we go out, I eventually get a significant amount of seawater in the aft bilges, to the point where it runs out of the drain hole onto the cabin sole. It seems to be related to how low in the water the stern is, and whether the waves are breaking over the stern, i.e. a transom leak somewhere above the normal waterline. I've even crawled way back in the aft berth while the leak was happening, hoping to spot where it was coming from, but no luck. It's kind of driving me crazy at this point, so I'd be grateful for any advice.

[1st Sail]

I can tell you on my M there is a metal L Shaped angle plate at the well to hull seam. It extends under the motor from side to side. Mine leaked under the plat at the deck to well joint. Every time it rained water would run down the inside transom wall and collect in the bilge. I caulked the entire seam with 5200 and sealed the leak.

[jimbo]

Can anyone clarify what the "rudder down-haul holes" are, and whether these could be an issue on a 26x?

I've looked at my rudder mounts as closely as possible, and I don't see anything that looks like a stand-pipe or tube.

If you follow the pull down rope from the rudder that emerges from the holes on the top of the deck you will see what seahorse means. At some point the rope passes up a tube at the rear of the rudder ( inside the hull) and then passes to the hole on the fibreglass on the deck. There is not a perfect join. Have not inspected myself yet but the tube at the back of the rudder only goes up a certain distance. If the outside water level gets above this height then water will flow into the interior as the seal from the metal tube to the fibreglass hole is not good. From description the height of this metal tube at the back of the rudder is not that high. Hence will not take a lot of water level rise at the transom to cause leakage. Imagine a fast de throttle from 20 knots and the stern wave catching up the the transom. Whoosh up the transom possibly flooding the tube and hence water in the bilge.

[pha]

Thanks for the replies. I guess the rudder tubes are not my problem, since I have a 26x and the rudder raising/lowering lines are completely outside of the hull. Sounds like on the 26m they go through the hull. I'll have to look elsewhere . . it happened again this last weekend. 6 hours of sailing around in about 16 kts, with no leaking. Then significant seawater in the bilges as we motored downwind back into the channel. I crawled back into the aft berth area while someone else steered, and could not find any water coming in through the transom. Yet the bilge was collecting water.

[macr]

Pha,

For a 26x leak while motoring, check the following:

1. Hole in compression post base will leak under power....more info at the following thread
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... ak#p151400

2. Loose or cracked rubber motor mount fittings will leak under power, especially the lower pair.

3. Motor Well, Galley and Head Thru hulls with loose/damaged hose fittings.

Hope that helps

Thanks for the replies. I guess the rudder tubes are not my problem, since I have a 26x and the rudder raising/lowering lines are completely outside of the hull. Sounds like on the 26m they go through the hull. I'll have to look elsewhere . . it happened again this last weekend. 6 hours of sailing around in about 16 kts, with no leaking. Then significant seawater in the bilges as we motored downwind back into the channel. I crawled back into the aft berth area while someone else steered, and could not find any water coming in through the transom. Yet the bilge was collecting water.