Degree of a 26X before she rolls?

[Russ]

You are looking at flat calm waters, picture 3-4 ft. breaking waves on the beam. You will roll over with ease. Also compare with a engine on it and equiped for cruiseing.
In those conditions that picture would have done at least a 360 if it didn't just stay bottom up.

Good point. Water filled boat is a different story.

The Mac is very buoyant and it would take a lot to fill it with water in one wave. It's all luck of course. Get a wave the wrong way and you are toast.
You make an excellent point that in conditions that are rough, closing the boat up and tethering yourself is the best practice. Also storing heavy gear low helps with stability.

With tens of thousands of Macs out there, there are an extremely rare few cases of capsizing. I think all that I've heard of consisted of overloading and lack of ballast. Tipping a Mac over is one of the lowest concerns on my list.

--Russ

[Divecoz]

I agree... Mine too Russ.. I have enough to think about with today.... why should I sit and worry making up unlikely scenarios about tomorrow

With tens of thousands of Macs out there, there are an extremely rare few cases of capsizing. I think all that I've heard of consisted of overloading and lack of ballast. Tipping a Mac over is one of the lowest concerns on my list.--Russ

[mastreb]

Macs are sensitive to overloading and weight distribution. A 26 classic turtled here in San Diego bay because it had 11 people on deck and nobody below decks. Furthermore, most of the weight was forward and the boat was sailing under Genoa alone, so it's CE was forward. With weight high and forward, and being overloaded with typical weight below decks, the boat flipped when caught by an unexpected gust.

Even so, it didn't fill with water and remained well above the surface of the water. With lines and practice, a crew of two likely could have rolled it back up.

The "nominal" angle of vanishing stability for a Mac is 110 degrees. That's the theoretical angle from beyond which the boat will roll, presuming all else is equal, with ballast in. This is why a mac should pop back up from a knockdown as long as ballast is in.

Without ballast that number is only 70 degrees, which could easily happen in a blow or strong waves.

[BOAT]

Hi Captain Matt.

I have only been using the mainsail in heavy waves as stability. Some here suggested using the head-sail instead. On the M boat what is the best sail to use in heavy waves?

[yukonbob]

I agree with Dave B on the headsail being very easy to deploy and reef in heavy weather, but if I get the chance I prefer a deep reef in the main and furl the headsail to where i feel comfortable. It helps balance the boat. With just the headsail it can get a little squirrely as the boat gets pulled through the water the aft tends to fish tale. As for the angle of no return…don't worry about it. If it happens you won't care what angle it is!

[mastreb]

Hi Captain Matt.

I have only been using the mainsail in heavy waves as stability. Some here suggested using the head-sail instead. On the M boat what is the best sail to use in heavy waves?

The best as YukonBob pointed out is both sails reefed to maintain balance, but I sail under "just main" and "just genoa" rather frequently depending on exactly how lazy I'm being at the moment, and I'm just as likely to go either sail only.

It kind of belies the center of effort theory as being the dominant dynamic, because the CE is 10 feet forward when running genoa only as compared to main only, and they both sail just fine in most winds IMHO. Yes, there's better balance when both are out and reefed, but clearly CE isn't that big of a deal if you can move it back and forth 40% of the waterline length and not really have it matter on the helm. Not only are you moving it back and forth, but you're also moving it from well forward of the CLR (daggerboard) to AFT of the CLR, and the boat still handles just fine. Aft of the CLR is supposed to destroy boat balance, but every sloop I've ever sailed does just fine on main only with the CE well aft of the CLR.

So I say use whichever sail you're most comfortable with at the time if you can't use them both. Upwind in light air, Genoa because it points better on its own. Any kind of heavy weather, mainsail with a small patch of genoa because the Genoa is heavily weather affected. Beam reach, mainsail. Running, Genoa. I've not really thought about it, but I guess I'd say it just depends on what you're doing.

Because I sail primarily in light airs, I've actually considered ditching the mainsail entirely and running two drifters as roller-furling headsails, with permanently mounted whisker poles. To tack you just furl one and unfurl the other, and the whiskerpole comes around with it from a center of rotation abaft the mast. How much sail you get out depends on what you're doing. Yes, it wouldn't point very well, but Macs already don't point very well and I don't think this would be any worse. Moving the CE a few feet forward isn't going to hurt anything IMHO, and I like novel rigs. And you could get the CE just about to where it is now by making a dramatically backswept mast: The current mast lays back at a 10% angle, as if it's not fully raised. The twin forestays for the two drifters hold it in place at that position, there's an aluminum wedge in the mast foot to keep everything correctly tensioned there, and the spreaders drop straight down to the chainplates instead of being backswept. Everything is kept in tension, and now the staysails CE is two feed farther back on the waterline, right where it should be. All it requires is new sails and stays, and custom machined mast-foot wedge to properly distribute forces at the step.

Matt

[Ixneigh]

WHile this discussion is interesting, I feel it really ought to be academic. Its sort of like asking, what do I do after I run my keelboat aground. You try your hardest not to ever run it aground. Accidents and mistakes happen, granted. (and im one to talk here becAuse of my own plans for my boat) but I really feel strongly that people should avoid at all costs weather that will cause these boats to roll to that degree. These are small craft. When the small craft advisories are posted, they should be operated with utmost caution. I am a singlehander, and I know, that makes me exceptionally reserved. A pansy even. Go ahead, say it. I got nothing to prove. in bad weather, I cant easily go from motoring to sailing because its too hard, or impossible, to raise the sail by myself. I can motor into protected water, and then do it. Or just wait it out. My opinion is that as soon as the water starts coming over the bow, its time past time even, to head in or to calmer waters. The keelboats cant follow me onto the flats, and I cant follow them into the blue water. Thats just how it it is. Ive added 350 pounds of lead to the boat, and am never in deeper water without the ballast tank full. she still rolls horrible because the bottom is almost completely round. The daggerboard down helps a little.
These boats were made with a distinct purpose and crashing through waves any larger then the APPEARENT hight of four feet is not that purpose. Despite the video on the website. I might even go out on a limb here and say that, the boat really should stay out of anything larger that what it can be on a full plane in comfortably, for maximum safety. On mine thats about two feet. There are alot of other "trailer-able" boats with keels, that can be ramp launched in some degree. Compacs come to mind. They will happily frolic in whatever your stomach can handle, and certainly will at least store in the mast up section on its trailer if thats your main reason to have a trailer boat. They wont plane under power of course, because they are not ultralight boats with a design that trades some seakindlyness for the ability to skitter about in nice conditions.Even with all of the serous mods I (eventually) intend for my boat, including glassing the hull to deck together with outside sheerclamp to stiffen the boat, ballasted dagger, ballasted rudders, upgraded rudderbrackets ect ect, it wont change my opinion in this area. I had a stellar trip this last time out, but there were a few times when I watched the weather VERY carefully, and even ignored NOAA because they didnt seem to be accurate and my hunch proved correct. The wind shifted early. I did not linger near what could have been a dangerous shore right by deep water even though it meant not seeing part of what I went for.
boats are tradeoffs. I recovered my boat in 15 minutes on a shallow ramp, pulled it home with a standard 8 cylinder, parked it in a low clearance area, after unstepping a very light mast and small easy to handle wire and bagging small light sails. You just dont get that AND serious wave bashing in the same package. Oh yea, and had a ton of room and standup headroom on a 26ft boat to enjoy my whole trip, too
Ix

[bbenkert26x]

Hey, no pansy there!! Very nicely put! I am used to a keel boat, a 33ft Hunter, I, like you, are a single handed sailor as well, even with the wife, she is still learning! I also watch NOAA and should of went with my first instinct, anchor in a cove till morning. I am now setting my rules............. anything over 20 knts we don't even think about going out, more than 3 ft. seas, ditto! And yes, I have to remind myself, this is a small craft, not a 33ft Hunter!! But on the other hand, I couldn't back the Hunter up to an Island and walk off either, nor get out of a storms way quickly, etc. so I am learning what my limits are, and some, the hard way!!

Thanks to everyone out there for your input as well!

Sail safe my friends!

Capt. B

[BOAT]

2 foot seas. That would be GREAT, but most uncommon over here where I am. I guess I have just gotten used to being in 3 to 6 foot swells because for most of the season it can't be avoided. It's not that bad - but it is a different way to drive. I do not fight the rudders when traveling in the Pacific. It's better to just let things slop around a bit. You don't need to have a straight line course to anywhere - it's okay to serpentine a little this way and a little that way. I'm not so worried about rolling over in big waves; my concern is breaking the rudders. It's more common. I try not to stress my rudders.

[bbenkert26x]

Hello Dave!

Like wise, nice meeting you again as well!!

After Saturday nights and knowing what I knew, I didn't want to bring it up in front of Vickie and freak her out ............ but yeah, all good information! I was wondering about the CB and dropping it a bit, but had my hands full and didn't want to make it worse.........

Will drop you a line next time we go out over night!

Gotta run!

B.

[DaveB]

I was refering to full ballast, who in there right mind would go out in winds gusting to 35mph in a unballast boat?
My MacX can go over in a Thunderstorm with winds over 35 Knots under bare poles gusting to 45 knots with full ballast, can go over much less winds if waves and current add to it on the beam.
There are times these Thunderstorms or even a Northern cold front can pac these winds and for a navigatior they need to know when they hit.
Often they are after the radar GPS Noa screen hits your location and many times 20 min. delay and thats to late.
Read the clouds and water, most of the time you have a 5 min. time frame to lower sails and secure boat with a plan.
Old rule is to Reef when you first think of it and second rule is if you see it comeing drop all sails and secure deck.
I have been in many wind/thunderstorms and Frontal system that can huff and puff and blow your boat down if one isn't prepared.
Being prepaired just makes it go smooth and no surprise.
How many people have admited their boat capsized?
Dave



Good point. Water filled boat is a different story.

The Mac is very buoyant and it would take a lot to fill it with water in one wave. It's all luck of course. Get a wave the wrong way and you are toast.
You make an excellent point that in conditions that are rough, closing the boat up and tethering yourself is the best practice. Also storing heavy gear low helps with stability.

With tens of thousands of Macs out there, there are an extremely rare few cases of capsizing. I think all that I've heard of consisted of overloading and lack of ballast. Tipping a Mac over is one of the lowest concerns on my list.

--Russ[/quote]

[BOAT]

35 mph winds will blow over a ballasted MAC with no sails up?? I did not know that.

[Russ]

35 mph winds will blow over a ballasted MAC with no sails up?? I did not know that.

It's true. It also depends on your definition of "blow over". I was blown over with bare poles. The boat went way over, not totally and eventually recovered. Probably 45% and it was tense. The Mac has a lot of profile for wind to push. I wouldn't say a bare pole Mac will capsize or have mast slap the water, but it will raise your heart rate.

--Russ

[BOAT]

Wow, I have sailed on only the mast before (on my old boat) but never had the slightest concern that it would knock down. In Sea of Cortez 40 to 50 MPH winds are daily - if you don't want to sail in them don't go there. We sailed there all the time. I can remember sailing on ther mast when trying to moore and making the motor just a little mad because it was so small. We used to pull into the launch ramp at midnight because it was the only time the wind was below 30 at Easter time. We needed five people to get the boats onto the trailer!

So the MAC M will blow over?? I have a hard time beliving that.

[Russ]

So the MAC M will blow over?? I have a hard time beliving that.

Again, it depends on your definition of "blow over". You hit the Mac broadside with 35-40mph winds and I guarantee it won't be straight up. Heck, if I stand my fat self on one side of the unballasted boat it leans over a bit. The Mac only weighs 2500 pounds and has a round bottom. I find once the ballast kicks in, it stiffens up, but that first gust will blow her over quite a bit. I also have a dodger which offers more for wind to grab.

The very first time we launched our Mac we went out in probably 20-25mph winds bare poles. Things were fine until I turned her broadside. The boat leaned way over and crew (used to sailing a much stiffer 34' Hunter) started to shriek. We weren't in danger of capsizing or a knock down, but it lifted the adrenaline a bit.

Again, not a knock down. My definition of that is mast slapping the water.

Brother, I have no idea how you launched or sailed in 40-50mph winds. On dry land I can't stand very well in that kind of stuff. Plus you can't hear yourself think with the howling. Not my thing. I couldn't have done it. You are more rugged than I.

--Russ