A few questions for the amazing members of this site:
1. Is the forestay really strong -- especially the roller-furling type.
2. Is the mast attachment for the forestay really strong?
3. Is the jib halyard, used in mast raising, really strong - should it be replaced and if so, by what thickness of rope (this begs another question, how is rope rated for strength? -- I am truly a novice about all this.)
4. How can one be absolutely sure that the ballast tank is full/empty? Any modifications for that?
Sorry about all the questions. Maybe one day I'll be able to help.
P.S. went to Catalina Is. on Thurs and came back on Sat in the densest fog of the season -- couldn't tell sea from sky and couldn't see past about 100 yds. The sea was glass and at one point in the shipping lane we went over a set of three very high waves (wake from something big that we didn't see or hear). At another point we heard fog horn soundings quite near -- but coudn't tell which direction they came from. Think I'll get a radar reflector.
Safety Concerns
-
Bill Smith
- Deckhand
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:49 pm
- Location: Orange County, California
-
richandlori
- Admiral
- Posts: 1695
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:08 pm
- Location: Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA
- Contact:
Bill,
I am by no means a mac expert.....
From your first questions, it seems like you have some doubts about the sea worthiness of the Mac, and are looking at what could be the weak points that could cause the mast to come crashing down. I am NOT an engineer of any kind, but from the shear combined sea/lake time of this boards members and all of the other Mac owners out there, you just don't hear stories about the mast crashing down. (ok, it did happen to me, but it was my fault)
There are 1000's of mac's out there and if there was a significant "risks" of system failures, the boats would be off the market in these days of lawsuits! So don't worry, just visually inspect the rigging and boat systems often and if you need to feel secure, have a professional rigger take a look.
On the Catilina trip FOG......holy flaming disasters batman....just reading about that situation scares the **** out of me. Those big ships would crush the mac like a bug and not even know they hit something. Weather can always turn bad at a moments notice, but if the fog was that thick, I would have stayed at the island...just my personal "saftey" margin speaking with two kids (6 and 7) on board.
Be CAREFULL out there.
Rich
I am by no means a mac expert.....
From your first questions, it seems like you have some doubts about the sea worthiness of the Mac, and are looking at what could be the weak points that could cause the mast to come crashing down. I am NOT an engineer of any kind, but from the shear combined sea/lake time of this boards members and all of the other Mac owners out there, you just don't hear stories about the mast crashing down. (ok, it did happen to me, but it was my fault)
There are 1000's of mac's out there and if there was a significant "risks" of system failures, the boats would be off the market in these days of lawsuits! So don't worry, just visually inspect the rigging and boat systems often and if you need to feel secure, have a professional rigger take a look.
On the Catilina trip FOG......holy flaming disasters batman....just reading about that situation scares the **** out of me. Those big ships would crush the mac like a bug and not even know they hit something. Weather can always turn bad at a moments notice, but if the fog was that thick, I would have stayed at the island...just my personal "saftey" margin speaking with two kids (6 and 7) on board.
Be CAREFULL out there.
Rich
-
Catigale
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10421
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
- Contact:
Bill
Ill echo Rich and Lori's sentiments about the safety in design numbers with respect to the rigging strength.
For a good reference on rope ratings, the boat US catalog has a lot of info.
Chapmans Piloting and Seamanship has a great section on fog safety...I was just reading it again last night.
Definitely add a radar reflector to your rig if your area has fog. I would go a step further and check with a local with radar to see what kind of visibility you have.
Ill echo Rich and Lori's sentiments about the safety in design numbers with respect to the rigging strength.
For a good reference on rope ratings, the boat US catalog has a lot of info.
Chapmans Piloting and Seamanship has a great section on fog safety...I was just reading it again last night.
Definitely add a radar reflector to your rig if your area has fog. I would go a step further and check with a local with radar to see what kind of visibility you have.
-
wscottno
- Just Enlisted
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:09 am
- Location: New Orleans; 2000X;Honda 50
Get the frazzling radar reflector NOW! One of Practical Sailors best was about $20. Cardboard and foil, but it works. Approach shipping lanes tangentially, under power, the big boys measure stopping distance in MILES, not yards. Forget the canned air hornes - they're not effective. Consider loitering out of the lane until the fog lifts.
-
waternwaves
- Admiral
- Posts: 1499
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:18 pm
- Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while
For those of you travelers who feel you must traverse shipping lanes......and in foggy conditions..
We're not in kansas anymore....Dorothy
are Radar Reflectors enough??
Tho I have often come out on the side of a minimalist/passive approach on most things...99% function for 30% cost....the low cost of active X band radar systems.....is so low now...that it seems it is time to require them 100% for those conditions.....Kind of like IFR and precision approach equipment for aircraft. Fogbound Marine travel in active shipping lanes without active radar seems as dangerous as driving down the freeway without windshields, wipers, or headlights. for my audio signalling I have used whistles... but I think a horn mounted/powered on the pedestal would be better....and a 12V cordset for it seems best. kept stored in the pedestal for when needed I think. AHHHH another project.
Could be done, stick your head out the window.....listen carefully.....but fog travel is stressful enough in tight channels without losing another pair of glasses overboard....heeheheh...lol But that is another story....and another vessel....9500 ft.....125 kts.... 200 knots from home...
I guess it is like other passive solutions now.... nice preventative...but I need active systems when action is mandatory, and you want more reliable results... not much margin with a 40,000T container ship.
But bill brings a good point up....maybe a full model for analyis. I guess..
ITS time...
WE could break it up/start analyis with a wireframe model....but where O where would I get the hull planiform...... what dedicated, capable individual with way too much wants to start measuring dimensions and thicknesses??? any takers.....maybe 2000 nodes to start......600hull, 600 liner, 800 deck..
With that then go to the rigging model.....
The reason the rigging model is not suggested first is because without knowing the stiffness and flexing of the hull and deck.....the wire loads and stretching is meaningless, since we cannot easily measure it....
But as my friends would tell me here..... (especially those who say I analyze too much...............and I do)
Glass and fasteners to it are going to fail long before the stays and shrouds will, MAsts and Tubing will bend, sails will tear....and hulls will have hole before they split..... and this is what I have seen on pretty much every wrecked sailboat I have inspected.
So, amatuer answers to the first questions...
1) sufficient to bend the mast and ultimately tear the mast forestay mount from the aluminum mast
2) sufficient for design rag loads and sea conditions .... (40 kts., 2.5g's
3) Jib halyard could be tighter (lower stretch...) but you dont use it much anyway if roller furled....unless you stick on the second forestay and manyally sheet jibs in high wind conditions....
4) visual inspection of the ballast tank is difficult underway, and best indicaiton is 10 kts...and observing the water drain rate.... during straight and forward travel.. less than 15 gallons....you are essentially empty. on an X, dont know if the shape of the M drains better. and as far as suctioning out water adjacent to the drain valve.....dont really see much of an advantage to that technique. But I peeked at Todds's M's at BWY today and it does seem that the M drain valve is closer to the centerline of the boat and would likely drain better....at least better than my 96X.
JMHO
We're not in kansas anymore....Dorothy
are Radar Reflectors enough??
Tho I have often come out on the side of a minimalist/passive approach on most things...99% function for 30% cost....the low cost of active X band radar systems.....is so low now...that it seems it is time to require them 100% for those conditions.....Kind of like IFR and precision approach equipment for aircraft. Fogbound Marine travel in active shipping lanes without active radar seems as dangerous as driving down the freeway without windshields, wipers, or headlights. for my audio signalling I have used whistles... but I think a horn mounted/powered on the pedestal would be better....and a 12V cordset for it seems best. kept stored in the pedestal for when needed I think. AHHHH another project.
Could be done, stick your head out the window.....listen carefully.....but fog travel is stressful enough in tight channels without losing another pair of glasses overboard....heeheheh...lol But that is another story....and another vessel....9500 ft.....125 kts.... 200 knots from home...
I guess it is like other passive solutions now.... nice preventative...but I need active systems when action is mandatory, and you want more reliable results... not much margin with a 40,000T container ship.
But bill brings a good point up....maybe a full model for analyis. I guess..
ITS time...
WE could break it up/start analyis with a wireframe model....but where O where would I get the hull planiform...... what dedicated, capable individual with way too much wants to start measuring dimensions and thicknesses??? any takers.....maybe 2000 nodes to start......600hull, 600 liner, 800 deck..
With that then go to the rigging model.....
The reason the rigging model is not suggested first is because without knowing the stiffness and flexing of the hull and deck.....the wire loads and stretching is meaningless, since we cannot easily measure it....
But as my friends would tell me here..... (especially those who say I analyze too much...............and I do)
Glass and fasteners to it are going to fail long before the stays and shrouds will, MAsts and Tubing will bend, sails will tear....and hulls will have hole before they split..... and this is what I have seen on pretty much every wrecked sailboat I have inspected.
So, amatuer answers to the first questions...
1) sufficient to bend the mast and ultimately tear the mast forestay mount from the aluminum mast
2) sufficient for design rag loads and sea conditions .... (40 kts., 2.5g's
3) Jib halyard could be tighter (lower stretch...) but you dont use it much anyway if roller furled....unless you stick on the second forestay and manyally sheet jibs in high wind conditions....
4) visual inspection of the ballast tank is difficult underway, and best indicaiton is 10 kts...and observing the water drain rate.... during straight and forward travel.. less than 15 gallons....you are essentially empty. on an X, dont know if the shape of the M drains better. and as far as suctioning out water adjacent to the drain valve.....dont really see much of an advantage to that technique. But I peeked at Todds's M's at BWY today and it does seem that the M drain valve is closer to the centerline of the boat and would likely drain better....at least better than my 96X.
JMHO
What's a radar reflector going to do for you in shipping lanes? IF they're watching the scope and see you, they still won't be able to stop, or probably even turn enough to avoid you.
It may get you some horn blasts, but you already know you can't tell where they're coming from. If you hear them, do you need to speed up, slow down, alter course, and if so, in what direction, or do nothing? Doing any of those could make it worse.
If you're real lucky, you may get a radio call with them giving you a bearing to head on to avoid the collision, but while that radio call is going out and you're responding, they could be closing on you at 25 feet per second, or 1500 feet in a minute.
While a radar reflector may help attentive sportfishermen, express cruisers, and others with more manuverability than a container ship avoid you, and it's definitely worth having for when you get caught out, it ISN'T a talisman that protects you while crossing shipping lanes in fog or at night. IMHO, either wait until visibility improves or get your own radar.
--
Moe
It may get you some horn blasts, but you already know you can't tell where they're coming from. If you hear them, do you need to speed up, slow down, alter course, and if so, in what direction, or do nothing? Doing any of those could make it worse.
If you're real lucky, you may get a radio call with them giving you a bearing to head on to avoid the collision, but while that radio call is going out and you're responding, they could be closing on you at 25 feet per second, or 1500 feet in a minute.
While a radar reflector may help attentive sportfishermen, express cruisers, and others with more manuverability than a container ship avoid you, and it's definitely worth having for when you get caught out, it ISN'T a talisman that protects you while crossing shipping lanes in fog or at night. IMHO, either wait until visibility improves or get your own radar.
--
Moe
My 2 cents
The forestay is plenty strong enough to handle the loads placed on it, and it is the same wire whether you have a furler or not. The thing you have to keep in mind is, that if it is kinked or corroded, the strength is significantly reduced. Inspect your rigging on a regular basis and as long as it is in good shape, it will serve you well.
Likewise, your jib halyard should be fine for raising the mast, assuming it also is in good condition.
The way to verify that the ballast tank is full is to check the level in the air vent hole - that vent hole is the highest point of the tank, so if the water is within finger-reach of that hole, you are full.
To verify that the ballast tank is empty underway, you'll have to do as WW states - motor ahead at 7+ knots so that the ballast drain valve is above water, and just look down until no more water is running out, then close the valve before slowing down.
There are a lot of warnings about not moving the boat if the ballast tank is not completely empty (or full), but a few quarts left in the bottom is not going to cause a problem. You can look up "Free Surface Effect" to get a better understanding of the issue.
As to the shipping lanes - here's my feeling from the standpoint of a Naval Officer who has piloted a 49,000 ton ship in and out of San Diego many times: If I am in my Mac, I have no need to be in a shipping lane unless I have to cross it. Nor do I usually have to be inside the channel - there is plenty of water outside the channel for my little boat. On a clear day with lots of visibility - ok fine, sail where you like but maintain a proper lookout. In the fog, stay clear of the channel/shipping lanes plotted on the charts. If you have to cross, and you have no radar, first (before entering the channel) shut down the motor so you can hear and ensure nothing is sounding fog signals (listen for a full 3 minutes, and if you don't know your fog signals pull out the rules of the road). Once you are confident nothing big is coming, sound your own signals and cross the lane/channel smartly until clear on the other side.
Since fog is so common there at Point Loma and is often so thick, a radar reflector is bound to be a good investment. Even without a radar reflector, you will show up on just about any good modern radar, but as Moe pointed out - seeing a blip on radar doesn't mean a big ship can do anything about it.
I've often heard people say "I have as much right to be there as anyone else" - and I will not dispute that, I totally agree. However, every one of us also has the absolute responsibility to be safe and protect the safety of others.
I'll never forget the time years ago, on a smaller ship (about 560 feet) that we had to "All back emergency!!!" and drop anchor in the channel entering San Diego in order to avoid hitting a guy in a center console fishing boat about 25 feet long, with 2 children on board, who drove right out in front of us and dropped his anchor in the channel - bright sunny day with unlimited visibility. Lucky for him we had all six main engines on line at the time and plenty of power to stop in about 300 yards (we were only moving about 7 knots as I recall), so we avoided hitting him. I remember one of the other officers calling down to him on a bullhorn that "FIVE SHORT BLASTS MEANS DANGER" and the guy just shaking his fist at us as he pulled up his anchor, moved around behind us and re-anchored - still in the channel (until the Coast Guard came and spoke to him). If that had happened to us on the oiler, not only could we not have stopped, but we'd have tried our damndest to avoid him and may well have run aground.
Not to mention that since the COLE incident and 9/11, small boats doing questionable things near big ships makes people nervous in a whole new way.
- AndyS
Likewise, your jib halyard should be fine for raising the mast, assuming it also is in good condition.
The way to verify that the ballast tank is full is to check the level in the air vent hole - that vent hole is the highest point of the tank, so if the water is within finger-reach of that hole, you are full.
To verify that the ballast tank is empty underway, you'll have to do as WW states - motor ahead at 7+ knots so that the ballast drain valve is above water, and just look down until no more water is running out, then close the valve before slowing down.
There are a lot of warnings about not moving the boat if the ballast tank is not completely empty (or full), but a few quarts left in the bottom is not going to cause a problem. You can look up "Free Surface Effect" to get a better understanding of the issue.
As to the shipping lanes - here's my feeling from the standpoint of a Naval Officer who has piloted a 49,000 ton ship in and out of San Diego many times: If I am in my Mac, I have no need to be in a shipping lane unless I have to cross it. Nor do I usually have to be inside the channel - there is plenty of water outside the channel for my little boat. On a clear day with lots of visibility - ok fine, sail where you like but maintain a proper lookout. In the fog, stay clear of the channel/shipping lanes plotted on the charts. If you have to cross, and you have no radar, first (before entering the channel) shut down the motor so you can hear and ensure nothing is sounding fog signals (listen for a full 3 minutes, and if you don't know your fog signals pull out the rules of the road). Once you are confident nothing big is coming, sound your own signals and cross the lane/channel smartly until clear on the other side.
Since fog is so common there at Point Loma and is often so thick, a radar reflector is bound to be a good investment. Even without a radar reflector, you will show up on just about any good modern radar, but as Moe pointed out - seeing a blip on radar doesn't mean a big ship can do anything about it.
I've often heard people say "I have as much right to be there as anyone else" - and I will not dispute that, I totally agree. However, every one of us also has the absolute responsibility to be safe and protect the safety of others.
I'll never forget the time years ago, on a smaller ship (about 560 feet) that we had to "All back emergency!!!" and drop anchor in the channel entering San Diego in order to avoid hitting a guy in a center console fishing boat about 25 feet long, with 2 children on board, who drove right out in front of us and dropped his anchor in the channel - bright sunny day with unlimited visibility. Lucky for him we had all six main engines on line at the time and plenty of power to stop in about 300 yards (we were only moving about 7 knots as I recall), so we avoided hitting him. I remember one of the other officers calling down to him on a bullhorn that "FIVE SHORT BLASTS MEANS DANGER" and the guy just shaking his fist at us as he pulled up his anchor, moved around behind us and re-anchored - still in the channel (until the Coast Guard came and spoke to him). If that had happened to us on the oiler, not only could we not have stopped, but we'd have tried our damndest to avoid him and may well have run aground.
Not to mention that since the COLE incident and 9/11, small boats doing questionable things near big ships makes people nervous in a whole new way.
- AndyS
-
Bill Smith
- Deckhand
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:49 pm
- Location: Orange County, California
Post Subject
Thanks everyone for the usual great responses.
Re: Catalina fog: our approach was to for one person to sit on the bow (with life jacket) and one person to control the boat (under very low power) -- keeping our eyes and ears open. We also turned on the lights and tried to communicate often. The real risk seemed to be the two or three cigarette boats we saw running at far to fast a speed (though I am sure very slow for them) for the conditions. They seemed to appear out of the fog as ghost ships.
Re: Catalina fog: our approach was to for one person to sit on the bow (with life jacket) and one person to control the boat (under very low power) -- keeping our eyes and ears open. We also turned on the lights and tried to communicate often. The real risk seemed to be the two or three cigarette boats we saw running at far to fast a speed (though I am sure very slow for them) for the conditions. They seemed to appear out of the fog as ghost ships.
-
dclark
- First Officer
- Posts: 418
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: Dave Clark - Orange County, CA - 2000 26X Day Tripper
I agree that the strength of the cable and rope isn't an issue (it's all plenty strong enough). whether you have a roller furler or not is irrelevent. If you are going to experience the mast crashing down, it'll be because you lost the clevis pin which will be a result of losing or not securing the ring-ding (cotter clip thingie).
If you experience a problem with the jib halyard and mast raising equipment, it'll most likely be the cleat attached to the mast that secures it. You can easily build in a couple safety measurments there if it concerns you.
I don't have a radar reflector but I suppose it is nice to have. Mostly because it's cheap enough. sound more like what you need is a radar. I'm not sure how much more comfortable I'd have been with a reflector knowing that they could see me if they had a rada and if they were watching and if they could do something about it (whoever they may be). A good idea I suppose, but I'd feel no more secure by having one.
Only way I know of to know if the ballast is full is to check it. I've seen people talk about adding electronic meters, etc ove the years, but they all seemed awfully expensive and a lot of work for little benefit. For the most part I always leave mine full (unless I dump it to motor, but then I refill as soon as I'm done) and always double check before raising sails.
If you experience a problem with the jib halyard and mast raising equipment, it'll most likely be the cleat attached to the mast that secures it. You can easily build in a couple safety measurments there if it concerns you.
I don't have a radar reflector but I suppose it is nice to have. Mostly because it's cheap enough. sound more like what you need is a radar. I'm not sure how much more comfortable I'd have been with a reflector knowing that they could see me if they had a rada and if they were watching and if they could do something about it (whoever they may be). A good idea I suppose, but I'd feel no more secure by having one.
Only way I know of to know if the ballast is full is to check it. I've seen people talk about adding electronic meters, etc ove the years, but they all seemed awfully expensive and a lot of work for little benefit. For the most part I always leave mine full (unless I dump it to motor, but then I refill as soon as I'm done) and always double check before raising sails.
Chip ...
Chip -
When i say the Coast Guard "talked" to him, I assume he got a lot more than a talking to. Generally, if a Navy ship calls the Coast Guard and registers a concern or complaint, they take pretty strong action. But, the Navy has no civil jurisdiction so what would happen to the individual is up to them - the two services work together well because we don't step on each others' toes
- AndyS
When i say the Coast Guard "talked" to him, I assume he got a lot more than a talking to. Generally, if a Navy ship calls the Coast Guard and registers a concern or complaint, they take pretty strong action. But, the Navy has no civil jurisdiction so what would happen to the individual is up to them - the two services work together well because we don't step on each others' toes
- AndyS
Chip ...
Chip -
When i say the Coast Guard "talked" to him, I assume he got a lot more than a talking to. Generally, if a Navy ship calls the Coast Guard and registers a concern or complaint, they take pretty strong action. But, the Navy has no civil jurisdiction so what would happen to the individual is up to them - the two services work together well because we don't step on each others' toes
- AndyS
When i say the Coast Guard "talked" to him, I assume he got a lot more than a talking to. Generally, if a Navy ship calls the Coast Guard and registers a concern or complaint, they take pretty strong action. But, the Navy has no civil jurisdiction so what would happen to the individual is up to them - the two services work together well because we don't step on each others' toes
- AndyS
-
Catigale
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10421
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
- Contact:
Good seamanship. THe only thing I can add is to shut down every few minutes and listen for fog sounds per regs.Re: Catalina fog: our approach was to for one person to sit on the bow (with life jacket) and one person to control the boat (under very low power) -- keeping our eyes and ears open. We also turned on the lights and tried to communicate often. The real risk seemed to be the two or three cigarette boats we saw running at far to fast a speed (though I am sure very slow for them) for the conditions. They seemed to appear out of the fog as ghost ships.
Person up front can also look with binoculars to get that extra edge of visibility. Rotate people if you are in fog for a prolonged time.
-
Frank C
Andy,
Your advice, " ... look, listen, and cross smartly!" is certainly valid for the shipping lanes in SD or SF Bay. But when we cross to Santa Cruz or CAtalina, those lanes are two miles wide for northbound traffic, and another two miles for southbound. Assuming no radar aboard, for those locales the only thing to do is, "Don't cross in fog!"
Your advice, " ... look, listen, and cross smartly!" is certainly valid for the shipping lanes in SD or SF Bay. But when we cross to Santa Cruz or CAtalina, those lanes are two miles wide for northbound traffic, and another two miles for southbound. Assuming no radar aboard, for those locales the only thing to do is, "Don't cross in fog!"