Heavy Weather Boating

[Catigale]

couple of comments

The most serious problem is that hanging on a sea anchor means that the boat is going backwards, albeit very slowly. Each time a wave boards the boat, it is being thrust backwards, placing severe strain on the rudder, which is not designed to take stress from that direction. No amount of lashing is going to secure the rudder sufficiently.

Simple problem to solve on the Mac - just pull em up....

Its cool to talk about heavy weather sailing, but there is no substitute for going out as crew and getting real experience. You cant get 'ready' by reading books and posts, its just a starting point on the learning curve.

Add "Attach lifelines" to the list of items above

Oil will smooth nasty seas - this method of calming seas is in all the old books....wonder what the fines are like for doing this now??

That theory of increased rogue waves due to lack of oil sounds like hoohey to me....who writes this stuff???

[Norm]

Oil will calm the seas? Maybe I will fill my ballast tank with 5-30wt next time I go out to SF Bay. Oh wait, pollution and stuff, I better fill it with vegetable oil instead.

[Greg]

As to the theory of less oil in the oceans causing more rogue waves, there are all kind of theories out there from so called experts. It may sound silly and I'm not saying I agree- I just threw it in as part of the discussion.
We hear about global warming caused by auto emissions, factory pollution or maybe cow farts. Is global warming caused by humans, or is it a natural cycle of nature and there is nothing we can do to change it? Or will an ice age happen instead? You could find an "expert" to back any one of these arguments. Please don't take it out of context.

As for the fines for dumping oil- I don't plan on finding out. Just because it was mentioned doesn't mean it's condoned.

I plan on using my Mac as much as I can, and don't plan on taking unnecessary chances with the boat or my crew. On any adventurous undertaking I have done, I have researched and learned as much as I could about the sport, safety and techniques beforehand. I have had a pretty good safety record to date and don't plan on changing it now. I have taken the USCG Auxilliary BS&S class and Power Squadron Seamanship and Piloting Classes and will be taking more in the future. The more I can learn about this sport the better.
As to going out with crew to experience heavy weather, everyone's situation is different and mine usually isn't such that I would desire to do that. I would like to know what has worked for others so if I am caught in a situation, I will have a leg up so to speak. I think a technique that works for one type boat may not work as well for another, so reading about how a certain sailboat handled FQS may not apply to the Mac. That's where other owners experience is invaluable.

Thanks,
Greg

[waternwaves]

James V

Yes it will survive 45, if you have the sea room.. but you wont sleep
and as far as

" as the boat presents a moving target and is usually lifted with the wave

and rides it out. But here is where one needs a device to slow the boat down so that it doesn't go careening down the face of the wave at surfing speeds

"

my drogue did not do any lifting...in fact......holds the bow slightly down skewed. as waves push up on the stern... probably just cuz the waves seem to rush by faster.... probably cuz I keep in gear.... but did not notice when weathering without the iron lung running.

and as far as ......
"

are deployed with a long line, and when the parachute is on one side of a wave and the boat on the other, the line will fall slack, to tighten with a sudden jerk as the boat accelerates

"

I did not observe that....., it is a very steady pull seaward have not been able to generate any pulsing, and I have a smaller drougue.......

JMHO....and yes, I have deployed off bow and stern depending on conditions.

I am having trouble imagining slack unless you are backing down on the line. My X has so much presentation of hull it is like its own weathercock, and have never observed slack io any trailing line.

Admittedly, I am only famliiar with the coastal and north pacific weathers.. and and this may be different for seas which wind and waves are running slightly askance.


btw......for the person that asked..... I was motoring at less than hull speed the first time I slapped mast on the horizon.... but with wave and stiff winds......+40 it is quite possible to screw up.....and I did....in breakers.....
Sorry to disagree.....with small components of the earlier statements.

[aya16]

I was in MDR a few months ago the waves were huge and the wind was blowing so hard I could hardly stand. Was one of the best nights I ever spent in the boat. Cold, windy, rain. If my dog went up on the cockpit she would be drenched in seconds sails flapping all around me some tore right in half. What did I do? I went out and put some blocks under the tires and closed the hatch turned the heater on and dropped in a DVD snuggled under a warm blanket. True story
mike

[waternwaves]

Aya,

guess, I am too chicken now,

Since my sails are furled/stowed and boom brought in when it gets above 30(and since I rarely carry spare rail meat) and I want to get anywhere... and most (not all.....first tear was trying to use the partially furled genny as a storm jib....bad idea) of my sail tears have been from improper backwinding of the genny, or fouling the 90 on deck (course no one else has ever done that)

and it is a very slow way to motor.

I have seen others try and sail macs with the second reef in...looks kind of like a losing battle for a guy singlehanding in puget sound.

With a good steady 30 out in the straights of juan de fu@, or out farther offshore..(and some room to use it) that might be a wonderful wind... but normally up here, past 30 is bare metal and long ride. cuz there aint much sailing....too busy just trying to hold course.

And I for one cannot really imagine sleeping with rags up...( tried several configurations and balancing.. doesnt work well for me, have napped in a bag in the cockpit) another proof that I am not a real bluewater sailor...lol) but mostly if I have to get some sleep, bare pole and drogue....

Does anyone trust their autopilot enough to sleep with it on?? I realize this is probably an esoteric question, since those who sail at night are probably mostly running to bimini or maybe up or down to the channel islands...(the couple of places with 40 to 50 miles of running room) but it seems that is too crowded to go unattended.. For me.....the west side of vancouver island is the only place I have tried it....and found the boat difficult to balance except straight down wind...(bungeed wheel)

anyway,
enough of my mistakes in sailing...wasnt enough wind to do much with her this morning anyway, came back, went golfing.....did worse.
Tomorrow, time to work on the boat again...move some more wires......etc...

[Catigale]

Greg -sorry if I offended, didnt mean to.

- Im not aware of any study that shows that rogue waves are more prevalent than previous, so before one speculates the cause of something its nice to know its factual. There was an interesting study on rogue waves that showed they are more frequent than believed previously, as opposed to actually occuring more often - a subtle difference.

On edit - the above wasnt pointed at anyone but on re-reading it it seems that way...Catigale has to learn the lesson of not posting after being up all night with a strep throat kid....makes him mean.....

Didnt mean to label anyone as a polluter. If I were caught in a bad storm and had oil on hand, I admit I would try it if I thought I would save my hide. My Eric Hiscocks "Cruising Under Sail" has a nice description of this technique - apparently you dont need a lot so a quart of motor oil might be useful enough in breaking seas....

The global warming thing gets my Irish up....there is no reasonable doubt among scientists that burning carbon based fuels has raised the temperature of the planet, and the guys who try to make this murky (Remember Ronny and his "Trees pollute" speech?? ) are being bought and paid for by politicians. What this temperature change means is not so clear. I for one think we should err on the side of caution given that the possibilities range from nothing to having to move all our marinas 100 miles inland...(last line is a fine example of political hyperbole).

[Jeff S]

I think if I were riding waves that caused me concern over pitch-poling I would have the rudders up (prevent breakage), have the motor running and use as necessary for steering and put it in reverse to slow my descent down a wave since I don't have a drogue on board. I would idle when I didn't need it. This would also keep my batts charged for radio transmissions and give me a quick way to manuever if required.

Jeff S

[aya16]

I was on the trailer with the sails under cover, the The sails that were being tore up were not mine but from other boats in the mast up storage area. Some of these boats havent seen water for years and sails are shot anyway from sitting in the sun with no covers and not tied down to well either.

[udannlin]

Oil will calm the seas? Maybe I will fill my ballast tank with 5-30wt next time I go out to SF Bay. Oh wait, pollution and stuff, I better fill it with vegetable oil instead.

not a bad idea if you are looking for more stability and self righting in the mac with heavy enough oil you can probably double the ballast weight.

[James V]

Dear Waterwaves, I can see your point, I am glad that you are an experienced sailor and know how to do the right things. You must be doing the right things to do so well sailing. The greatest fears that I have in a Mac is losings things off it when a wave breaks over it, again and again. I don't know if I can agree that the boat could withstand 1 or 2 heavy waves falling on top of it or even a roll over or gets its bow stuck in a wave. It just depends on how BIG.

If you was unfornuate/unwise enough to be caught in the bottom of a big roge wave and it breaks over you and your Mac. Can you say that you and your boat will survive? I would hope so. I just do not want somebody to take a Mac to Bermuda and expect to survive several storms.

I think that the Mac is safe enough for the average sailor for winds up to 25mph for short periords. You should not tempt fate.

[waternwaves]

James,

Thanks for the kind words......but i doubt I "do so well".....

I have dumped her, pooped her, been knocked down, contaminated fuel, broken Steering gear, fouled props, lost lines, torn sails, made errors in navigation, and in general...learned a lot of specific info about my mac....every boat has advantages and disadvantages..

just my observations, but in near shore breaking waves....seems the probability of being dropped and rolled has happened much more often to me than having a towering breaker fall on me.... The fall line is somewhat repeatable and observable....

and as far as open water travels.....I personally have not observed any 50 ft tall open ocean wave trains.....and if I did, I think I would be quartering them (as well as prayers on high, too late to lash the mast down anyway....lol)...as to not take them head on nor sideways...lol..(If I am going to roll, it would be nice to do that without 30ft of water above me.....),

And as far as any boat surviving a 50 tall breaking wave the mechanics of such a monster would be lifting the mac quite quickly..so even then a 50 ftr.... would probably have a dozen or two of crest above the lifted height of the boat.....

And I dont know of any small sailboat that can take a continuous dropping of that much water on deck and not suffer damage....

I have motored with friends who have
san juans, Cats, lancers, O'days.... ,in dumpy confused seas outside port angeles Washington. The mac stays higher in the waves and is much more bouyant. , and much harder to steer straight. Waves crashing over the others bows and cabins are lower on my foredeck.... some of that is hull design, some is height... but basicly the mac does not stay bow down long, since it is an extremely low displacement boat for its volume.


So I guess the geometry of a heavy wave falling.... if any boat would stand a chance of surviving bare poled it would probably be a mac type vs. a heavier boat with the same thickness of cabin top.
I guess I'll bet that the boat will climb the wave faster than other boats except maybe a sailboard/ Our sectional density is extremely low.

Jeff,
I agree in principle, since the rudders are somewhat safer when raised... however....controlling the boat direction with that 50 nissan at slow speed is crazy in rough seas....lol..... and I prefer a bit of control..... but when your groundspeed is under 5, ya might as well throw a board down,....I've already dropped the CB a few inches anyway.....

WEll, I guess the SSCC (single sailor crew configuration) makes it easier to even go out in the dumpy weather..... SO I will continue to make my mistakes and record the results for others enjoyment and edification.

[James V]

Dear Waternwaves, WOW, You have had a lot of adventures!! Wish I was there! Glad to know that the Mac is more durable than I thought.
Have you done/repaired anything stronger than the orginal design?
Where do you attach the stafty harness to?
Can you quote the "little woman"?

[Tripp Gal]

Here's the deal with mast mods.

Internal halyard systems and adding headsail sheaves: Internal halyard/sheave systems are very carefully designed with the mast diameter, opening size, and wall thickness in mind. If you want to add another halyard sheave then the very first thing you do is check the size of the current opening and see if a sheave can be added to the mix or if the sheave opening needs to be enlarged. If the width of the sheave box is wide enough for the added sheaves and delrin spacers then have at it, it's a job you can do yourself. If the sheave box is not wide enough then you need to call the spar maker and talk to the engineers regarding your plans. While most production fractional boats can handle a new sheave box for the halyards, some cannot and you can end up weakening the mast which results in a mast failure at that point on the mast. Masthead headsail sheave systems are relatively easier to deal with as you can more often than not engineer and make a new masthead cap.

External halyards and headsail blocks: Since all you are doing about is adding another block things are less critical engineering wise. For those with larger eyes for the blocks, then you just have to add another block. For those with smaller eyes, then you may have to remove the old and replace with a slightly larger one.

Mains: The older the boat, the more likely you are to see double main halyards. Modern production boats don't have this as much any more, but it's something a distance cruiser should consider. Offshore racers have them and a spare halyard or tracer run and ready to go.

[waternwaves]

Jeff,

The SSCC is me,

Cant afford paid crew........ at this time.....lol So no "little woman"

I envy you guys/gals that can get your significant others to share the sailing.