Flipping a Macgregor

[yukonbob]

Wow that's crazy! Thought the equatorial tides were minimal but probably has a lot to do with the geography as it usually does with those big tides.

Edit:
22-24' tides but with the low slope around San Filipe the town can be as much as 1.5 miles from the water! Spent time in Mazatlan and up into Sinaloa and south Sonora country but never on the Baja or northern SOC. There are similar beaches in BC here in Canada that run out for what seem like ever and when the tide does come in you can't outrun it even though its only a few inches deep, just long flat sand flats.

[sailboatmike]

If my memory serves me, in the marketing videos Roger said the boats would round up if hit by a wind gust as a safety feature.

I watch so many sailing videos on Youtube they all sort of blur into one eventually, this may of been on the X (having unlimited internet download does have its drawbacks )

Im loving this discussion, but please DONT let it get personal, it seems a topic the evokes real passion, after all we have all been subject to ignorant comments about how our boats aren't REAL sail boats.

Me, I just love blowing the doors (or hatches) off REAL sail boats on a reach or a run, shuts them up big time

[BOAT]

Wow that's crazy! Thought the equatorial tides were minimal but probably has a lot to do with the geography as it usually does with those big tides.

Edit:
22-24' tides but with the low slope around San Filipe the town can be as much as 1.5 miles from the water! Spent time in Mazatlan and up into Sinaloa and south Sonora country but never on the Baja or northern SOC. There are similar beaches in BC here in Canada that run out for what seem like ever and when the tide does come in you can't outrun it even though its only a few inches deep, just long flat sand flats.

The low tide pictures were taken when I was in San Felipe, and I can remember swinging and rolling wildly in the chop in the AM and then on the same day walking in knee deep water from the boat to the huts on the shore. I even re set the anchor because I could see it!

The other pictures are from places all over the Sea of Cortez.

[Signaleer]

Ok I admittedly was probably the jerk in all this

I don't usually do that, but when I do, I can be a real tool. I think if you notice throughout I admitted that hehe...

In any case, to BOAT, I envy some of your life experiences and hope to enjoy some of them myself some day.

Here's what we can all know.

The and the S/D/C's are all great boats.

BOAT, in this entire thread I think you basically were saying that the doesn't round up vs. boats you have been on. That very well may be true. There could be a few reasons for it... just to think about.

1. As you have pointed out the M & X have dual rudders and are less likely to be angled out of the water vs. a single rudder. Although their effectiveness does diminish with heel and the are capable to losing enough control depending on other factors.
2. (And this is my personal opinion having sailed these boats) another contributing factor is speed & tack (or vector). The mac on heel, or extreme heel, makes a slow boat even more slow. In fact, at heel or extreme heel, the lift and drag produced by the ridiculously undersized boards is reduced futher. If you watched your sail track on a GPS in a heavy blow under heavy heel, you are probably making as much distance over ground to leeward as you are in a forward motion. You are essentially on a run, a slow run albeit, with the boat being blown near the direction of the beam. I'm exaggerating this scenario to make a point.. (If you look at the you-tube videos of both mac's in high winds, they are definitely NOT going fast near hull speed imho).

Rounding up requires forward motion or at least forward force, some vector. The less of it, less drag from the keel and wetted surface to leeward plowing through the water. If the boat is simply laying on its side, being blown to leeward, I don't think it would really round up, at least not as quickly. So if we are going slower, with a smaller keel, and at least one rudder still in the water (which both the X and M have), then we are probably less likely vs. other boats to experience this.

Tangent joke: They all could probably round up a few times, get back under way, and still beat us to the beer station... heyyyyooohhh! I digress.

So, does the mac have a lesser tendency to round up vs. my old P26 which would do it so violently that I thought the thing would break in half? Probably. Its not going as fast, forces are all lighter, and there is far less drag, and the rudders are more engaged ... (probably).

Will it still do it? Most definitely.

Is an M any different than an X with regard to this? Not conversationally and I haven't the measurements to discuss beyond speculation. The hull shape differences and the dagger board (I think is a bit thicker fore to aft?) may contribute to a difference in the computer models but probably not in the real world.

You want to run a test? Dump that ballast and throw some cloth in the air. Sheet tight once you have some speed. The same rules apply to us all. I may do it and make a video of it just for fun. That would suck though if I went past the point of diminishing stability.

Cheers,

Ed.

[BOAT]

Roger did test the un-ballasted M boat and posts this on the website:

Without the water ballast, the boat may not return to an upright position if the boat is tipped more than 60 degrees, and can capsize like most non-ballasted sailboats.

So the "official" factory number is 60 degrees un-ballasted.

That sounds to me like a ringing endorsement for a boat to go over 60 degrees WITH ballast? Think about it.

[sailboatmike]

I just did a quick calculation (and you know I love numbers )

The X carries 680 liters or 179 US gallons or 151 Imperial gallons of water as ballast, given that one of my little bilge pumps is rated at 600 gallons per hour (which I take to be Imp gallons) it would take a bilge pump close on 15 minutes to empty the ballast, even my bigger one is only 1500 gallons per hour so would take 6 minutes,

Has anyone seen just how much water pours out of even a 600 gallon per hour bilge pump running??? and it would take 15 minutes to empty my ballast tank, that just blows my mind.

Yep to flip anything with that much water sitting in the bottom isnt going to be an easy task.

I think when these guys go on about how water ballast isnt stable they imagine we have a little puddle in the bilge

[Jimmyt]

Looks like around 70 deg, we lose the dagger board bite, but the low side rudder is still under. So, I'm wondering; does it round up, or fall off? Or, maybe by 70 deg, there isn't enough sail to keep forward motion, so it does something that is dependent on windage, sea conditions, how the boat is loaded, etc... A round up answer isn't really obvious.

Anyone ever actually had an X or M round up (not a helm round up) on a reach? I imagine highlander would know if anyone would.

Sounds like Boat can vouch for it not happening up to 50 degrees or so.

Maybe if you were running the main only, you could overpower the low side rudder and it would happen earlier. Looks difficult with a balanced rig.

[Tomfoolery]

Which one are you on that motorless A23?

I have sailed a lot of strange craft:

Looks like a LaPaz motor sailer. A rather rare bird, I believe, though not as rare (I don't think) as my Aquarius 7.0, with masthead rig and rudder on pintles on the transom (like an A21). And another Coastal Recreation offering. Lots of CR boats in your past it seems.

And now, back to our regular programming.

[Ixneigh]

Yes I have had my boat round up on a number of occasions.
First few times was running in fresh winds.
I tend to use a smaller jib for doing this then I would a boat with a backstay so it's partially due to that.
I had a reefed main and a Yankee up and the boat was doing a good 6 knots with faster surges in three foot seas.
Don't know exact wind speed but the boat had too much sail up for anything but running. (Clarify: the boat needed two reefs for comfortable on the wind sailing with a heel no more then 30 degrees) however, since my course for the day was nearly dead down wind I only had one reef. As stated boat was going good, with concentration to prevent a jibe. Some time I'd be doing wing on wing or sometimes I'd bear off just a bit in the puffs. The area was somewhat coral infested and I had a course line i didn't want to deviate from too much. So half way through the afternoon I saw seven knots briefly and was really concentrating on steering. I decided to jibe since the boat was creeping off course towards coral (or I'd been letting her do the to delay jibing) and I did execute a fair controlled jibe but only moments later the boat wound up broadside to the wind with the jib flogging violently. No amount of coaxing could get the boat off the wind again until I took another reef in the main, where by the remainder of the trip was slower but much more pleasent. note I had some board down. It seems that having none at all in fresh downwind conditions makes it a bit more likely that boat will engage in these antics.
Had I had the factory jib up, I might have been able to continue down wind after my jibe but until I get running backstays set up I don't like to carry a lot of head gear while running. My plan is to set up my specialized down wind gear this summer. (Summer time in the USA is my off season)
The boat will still round up though, it will just take more wind to do it. My goal is not more speed but a more comfortable sail at six or better knots. A reacher or cruising spinnaker would do that.
The second time the boat rounded up uncontrollably (of particular note) was when I got hit with a squall while trying to keep up with a keelboat. I normally would have maybe just dropped the factory jib and let the weather blow by with just a fishermens reef in the main. But I held on and the boat heeled way over, became broadside to the weather and to keep the jib from flogging I pulled it in and eased the main a bit and just let the boat drift sideways until the squall passed. During all this time I was not in the least bit worried about the boat turning over. I know she will not do that with the ballast in plus all the extra weight I have. I was worried about breaking things. That's the majority of my concern regarding this boat.
A few of my own observations about the M model.
The boat has a very narrow beam. That plus high sides act as a safety factor by limiting the amount of sail it can carry.
Even adding a a lot of weight to counteract that won't help since the boat will turn into a heavy slug and won't power well.
The rudder angle must be as small as possible to correct the course. If you oversteer it's easy for the rudders to lose thier bite on the water (stall) and become ineffective. To this end an autopilot will help but because the auto pilot doesn't steer to the wind using one while running is a bad idea. (They do make wind interfaces for the autopilot. I still wouldn't trust it)
Any debrie on the rudder will hinder its operation. It must be kept clean of seaweed. That's very important.
I remain unconvinced that this boat sails well at extreme heel. It possibly will sail fast at extreme heel on a certain point of sail but not over all. If the course is to weather I will beat you up wind every time by keeping heel to no more then 30 or so degrees. If the course is a beam reach then I may still beat you since once on its side your boat has no effective keel and will make a lot of leeway.
Ix

[BOAT]

I am piloting a blue A23 with my dad so i am not in any of those pictures - at the time i would have been around 14 years old I think.



My hero was Robin Lee Graham back in those days.

Some of the pictures were taken from my dad's boat - some were taken by a professional photographer that was freelancing for a writer doing a piece for a sailing magazine. He would ride on different boats during the regattas:



Back in the old days to launch in Mexico you often would put the boat in on the beach, I think this is Mulege:

[yukonbob]

Yes I have had my boat round up on a number of occasions.
First few times was running in fresh winds.
I tend to use a smaller jib for doing this then I would a boat with a backstay so it's partially due to that.

These are the exact observation I've made as well. Never seem to notice rounding up when beating to wind. If anything in higher winds with the higher free board I find I get blown off wind more often (25knts+ sust. and gusting) even with just a patch of headsail out. I’ve been firing up the outboard in those conditions and motor sailing upwind with excellent results even with the OB idling along I find I can point much higher and maintain speed.
Running is a different situation all together. Every time I have the main up running downwind in higher winds she wants to round up and when the waves build and surfing begins it can be very violent (this is where I’ve almost washed the sails and laid the boat flat a few times but it always pops back up). In these conditions I just run my jib and keep very good speed (6+). Have not deployed the drogue which I think would be the ideal setup for down winding in the conditions I’ve described. Headsail and dragging a bucket should keep surfing down to a minimum and keep good control with few surprises. I share your concerns of over sheeting the headsail with no backstay, and next time (using set up mentioned above) plan to use the main halyard as a back stay. Not sure where I’m going to attach it but I keep two loops of webbing onboard (about 8ft ea) for various reasons. Maybe run one between the aft cleats and attach there. I think with the main up it puts too much power aft of the DB/CE and that combined with surfing when the bow bites into the next wave, makes rounding up fast and intense. The faster the surf the harder it gets to counteract.

[BOAT]

This is what I thought was a round up with a knockdown. Ed caught me using these interchangeably and I needed to be corrected.

In this video are a lot of things going on but the very first thing I see that I never do when going downwind is stand up in the cockpit so high that the boom could reach my head.

You will see that the AP is running and continues to drive the boat right over the side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Tzh22lxhE

For the poor skipper he was all alone trying to manage a kite but I must give him credit for trying. It's not an easy thing to manage with even three people. Normally to set the pole underway you need someone on the sheets to help you. He was all alone.

[kadet]

This is what I thought was a round up with a knockdown. Ed caught me using these interchangeably and I needed to be corrected.

....

I was taught round-up is loosing steerage and heading up into the wind i.e can only occur heading into the wind not on a run.

If this occurs when running it is called a broach because you don't end up head up to the wind you end up on a beam reach and normally get knocked down by wind, waves or both.

A knocked down requires the boat to heel to the extent that a spreader touches the water

Flipping is not a real sail term but I take it to mean pitch pole or capsize or possibly a roll over.

And depending on your rigging tune and sail configuration an can most defiantly round up on AP, been there done that.

All it took was for a bullet to hit off a headland with full 150 Genny and full main up weather helm did the rest AP could not overcome as rudders stalled and it disengaged.

Boat you are probably a better sailor than most of us and keep your boat tuned and trimmed correctly and why you have not experienced a round-up, this is what I am finding with the AP you can spend more time playing with sheets, reefs etc.. so you don't get into trouble in the first place

Or just wander around the boat listing to the tunes
https://goo.gl/photos/ANMHL6TTH7vAcQ6o8

[yukonbob]

I was taught round-up is loosing steerage and heading up into the wind i.e can only occur heading into the wind not on a run.

If this occurs when running it is called a broach because you don't end up head up to the wind you end up on a beam reach and normally get knocked down by wind, waves or both.

On a run I experience a full roundup pointed straight into the wind. the only thing to counter is to steer downwind; But if you let the boat take control you'll be pointed back upwind in a second, no broaching no stopping just a complete 180. Loosening the rigging bit has seemed to counter this.

[kadet]

On a run I experience a full roundup pointed straight into the wind. the only thing to counter is to steer downwind; But if you let the boat take control you'll be pointed back upwind in a second, no broaching no stopping just a complete 180. Loosening the rigging bit has seemed to counter this.

In those circumstances I guess that qualifies as a doughnut then or do you have to go full 360 to get that