Flipping a Macgregor

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT »

Ya - I can't get the rudder out of the water - and I have never had the rudder stall (or not work, or whatever you call it), ever, so I'm stumped.

I just can't get my boat to do at 55 degrees what this boat is doing at less than 48 - (namely: get the rudder out of the water)

Image


This Hunter 25 is doing what to me is a "Round-Up" - please forgive me if I am getting this term wrong - but the guys in this video are doing a maneuver that I have experienced many many times on other boats - the nose of the boat goes looking for the keel of the boat like a dog chasing his tail - in my experience the boat always turned in the direction of whatever side the keel was on, and why I say, "spinning on the keel", please forgive my terminology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w00suzaDh_A

It's clear to see that the rudder only had about 1 foot of surface in the water very early at 45 degrees and the boat started to turn - a one foot rudder is not going to work on that heavy boat. I assume that is the rudder "stall" that yukon mentioned - but I can't get the rudder on my boat to "stall" - it just keeps working - steering the boat. It's way down there in the water even when I am long past 45 degrees. I know I'm not the only one because I have videos of Highlander and Beene and other people on You Tube heeling just as far as the boat in the picture above and they are experiencing no loss of control at all. That has been my experience with my boat too. You guys might want to blame the pilot but I credit the boat.
User avatar
Ixneigh
Admiral
Posts: 2477
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:00 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Key largo Florida

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Ixneigh »

I'm forming the opinion from this thread that at least on the M, centerboard depth is more important then I thought when running. I used to pull it up all he way, then I started dropping it "a bit" but now I'll be trying to find the exact best position and I'll mark the line with a sharpie.
Ix
DaveC426913
Admiral
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:05 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by DaveC426913 »

BOAT wrote: Image
You can see this was deliberate and planned in advance.

Not just the guy hanging on the low side, but the fact that they have a refrigerator-sized float lashed to the masthead.

I imagine two pairs off brass cahones helped too. :)
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT »

Ixneigh wrote:I'm forming the opinion from this thread that at least on the M, centerboard depth is more important then I thought when running. I used to pull it up all he way, then I started dropping it "a bit" but now I'll be trying to find the exact best position and I'll mark the line with a sharpie.
Ix
I probably never pull up the daggerboard - not because I don't think it's a good idea, but because I never think about it much unless I am in shallow water. Reports here is that 1/2 is good for running.

I think I must be a lousy sailor - I don't do a lot of the stuff I read about here.

I do not sit in the cockpit with the main-sheet in my hand - every-time I hear that I scratch my head, but I don't say anything because I don't want to look stupid. I have never done that in all my years except in a dingy or race. I pick a bearing and then set the sails for that bearing and then walk away!

That's it! No quick release on the main, no quick maneuvers into the wind - nothing. I just let the boat sail - after I'm underway the least I do the better the boat sails. That's pretty much the case with most every boat I have sailed. If the wind has a gust up and the boat starts to lean over, I don't do anything. I just ride the boat till the gust goes away. Points of sail to me are for piloting a particular bearing, maybe I am looking at it wrong, but I just set the sails for the desired bearing and then just steer the bearing. I guess as a kid staring at a compass for hours on end put me in the habit - I dunno - when you have no land to see and nothing but ocean for more than a day or two you become fixated on bearings - that's all I care about when I am sailing - "hold the bearing!" Like as if my life depended on it today - how stupid - but that's how I am - it's habit.

Now with the AP I literally just walk away from the helm and go below decks: did the same on wind vane pilots before. And yes, sometimes the wind shifts and you get pushed over and that's my point = Here's the deal:

I have videos of Highlander and Beene and others including myself exceeding 50 degrees with no loss of control! That's what I'm talking about - the boat steers just fine at ridiculous angles. I'm not saying that I sail all day long between 45 and 50 degrees, that's not my point - what I'm saying is that if the boat goes there NOTHING HAPPENS! (At least in MY part of the world)

Yukon and Tom are right about downwind sailing being crazy at times and really that's what tacking is all about - I never could understand why some skippers insist on going directly downwind in sketchy conditions when a nice comfortable broad reach will work just as well with a few well planned tacks. People seem to have no trouble tacking up wind but they can't seem to get themselves to do it going downwind - why not? I do it all the time. Maybe I'm just lazy and have been wacked in the face too many times by a wild whisker pole but for me - I try to do the most with the least effort.

One hint I would add that works for me - furl in your Genoa if your going to go wing on wing - the genoa comes too far aft and presents an edge to the wind that will back draft it - furl the Genoa down to what a working jib would be - you have to do that anyways if you stake it off with a whisker pole - so save you neck when running dead with the wind and pull in some of the huge bed sheet on the front - remember - it's not a spinnaker - better to turn a little side to the wind and foil it properly - it makes a lousy bag. (And yes, to do that you need the daggerboard - in my case I use ALL of it.)

Just my opinion.
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Jimmyt »

Glad you said that Boat. I was starting to think I was crazy locking down the main and Genoa and just enjoying the ride. Usually, I let the guests take the helm. Always good for entertainment.
DaveC426913
Admiral
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:05 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by DaveC426913 »

BOAT wrote:
Ixneigh wrote: I think I must be a lousy sailor - I don't do a lot of the stuff I read about here.

I do not sit in the cockpit with the main-sheet in my hand - every-time I hear that I scratch my head, but I don't say anything because I don't want to look stupid. I have never done that in all my years except in a dingy or race. I pick a bearing and then set the sails for that bearing and then walk away! .
It is possible that your local weather plays a part. If you routinely have medium, steady winds, you might not encounter the same weather.

For example, I sail off the shore of a big city, which breathes in and out as the day progresses, making for shifty winds and sometimes strong gusts, and there's a long lake in the direction of our prevailing weather, allowing both winds and waves to build substantially.
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT »

Very True - I have often said that you guys in the Atlantic and the inland waterways are all way better pilots than I am. I have no obstacles out here.
User avatar
sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Australia

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by sailboatmike »

That was certainly a round up, but not like one would experience without the huge weight hanging from the top of the mast, generally the boat will just turn abruptly nose into the wind as she gets overpowered, as it comes around there is no heeling force because it has come up onto the wind so much so it will sit upright rather than laying down.

With the weight on the mast it looked more like a broach, but thats MHO
Baha
First Officer
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:58 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: UK

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Baha »

DaveC426913 wrote:
BOAT wrote:
Ixneigh wrote: I think I must be a lousy sailor - I don't do a lot of the stuff I read about here.

I do not sit in the cockpit with the main-sheet in my hand - every-time I hear that I scratch my head, but I don't say anything because I don't want to look stupid. I have never done that in all my years except in a dingy or race. I pick a bearing and then set the sails for that bearing and then walk away! .
It is possible that your local weather plays a part. If you routinely have medium, steady winds, you might not encounter the same weather.

For example, I sail off the shore of a big city, which breathes in and out as the day progresses, making for shifty winds and sometimes strong gusts, and there's a long lake in the direction of our prevailing weather, allowing both winds and waves to build substantially.
I'm really glad to see these comments. Usually, what I am after is a nice, peaceful day. If I can find space and the right point of sail, I am happy to sit back and be blissfully lazy.

I won't get the boat wet till July (playing tour guide for visiting family) but am looking forward to trying out my larger helm wheel, autopilot, and new job from Judy B. Should make me an even lazier sailor!!
User avatar
dlandersson
Admiral
Posts: 4974
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:00 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Michigan City

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by dlandersson »

I don't either, I don't think many of us do. Although, I do find that the more hours I spend out there, the more situations I find myself in. 8)
BOAT wrote:I do not sit in the cockpit with the main-sheet in my hand - every-time I hear that I scratch my head, but I don't say anything because I don't want to look stupid...No quick release on the main, no quick maneuvers into the wind - nothing. I just let the boat sail - after I'm underway the least I do the better the boat sails.
User avatar
sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Australia

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by sailboatmike »

Not sure about you guys but on my sailing grounds the forecast in our area is normally a 10knt range with an added 40% for gusts, for example the forecast may be 10 to 20knt winds and we will be sailing along having a great time then we get hit by a just on a 30kt gust and thats all within the weather forecast range, needless to say I always have the mainsheet if not in hand VERY close by.

Im sure our forecasters here just use a dartboard and a blindfold, if they make the range large enough and then add 40% they are just about never wrong :D
User avatar
Ixneigh
Admiral
Posts: 2477
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:00 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Key largo Florida

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Ixneigh »

That's a good point, Boat. In my case I sail in shallow waters say under 20 feet, and often under five, nearly all the time. I specifically got the boat to do just that. I don't have to contend with large waves tossing the boat, and rarely hold the main sheet , if ever. This weekend I plan to spend three days in water about four feet deep (Florida bay)
Nor do we have to contend with mountains or buildings mucking up the winds.
Ix
DaveC426913
Admiral
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:05 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by DaveC426913 »

Today, with two crew on the high rail, I had to turn fully into the wind to get the boat to right itself in a gust.

No big deal, you say?

I had zero sail up. I was under power.

(Never seen weather like this here. Gotta be 15-20 knots sustained with gusts to 30-35. And has lasted 8 hours so far.)
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 6135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Tomfoolery »

DaveC426913 wrote:Today, with two crew on the high rail, I had to turn fully into the wind to get the boat to right itself in a gust.

No big deal, you say?

I had zero sail up. I was under power.

(Never seen weather like this here. Gotta be 15-20 knots sustained with gusts to 30-35. And has lasted 8 hours so far.)
I was on the boat yesterday, too, but I chose (not a hard choice) to not go out. Just did some work on it, including improvements to the dock fender arrangement, as the wind was screaming, and pushing the boat against the dock.

A couple of jet ski drivers came in and said that it was the best on the lake since a hurricane off the coast whipped up the lake not long ago. Tells me it's not the right conditions for this particular boat. :wink: A big slug like the Formosa 51 (like the boat in Captain Ron), with a full keel, would probably ride nicely in it. But not my Clorox bottle baby. Or more likely, it would be fine, and I've been out in stuff like that when it came up on me and the boat pounded away but was otherwise fine, but I didn't and wouldn't enjoy it. :D
bobbob
First Officer
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:14 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Toronto

Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by bobbob »

DaveC426913 wrote:Today, with two crew on the high rail, I had to turn fully into the wind to get the boat to right itself in a gust.

No big deal, you say?

I had zero sail up. I was under power.

(Never seen weather like this here. Gotta be 15-20 knots sustained with gusts to 30-35. And has lasted 8 hours so far.)
Flew home yesterday from Mtl on Porter, and the approach to the island airport was as squirrelly as I can ever remember it!
Post Reply