Finally, a wind instrument that will work with a Mac!

[kurz]

thanks. I know that the ev-100 can steer by wind information without a chartplotter.
My question was if you can use the raymarine p70 dipslay (that comes with the ev-100) to show the wind direction in a graphical stile. So there was no need to mount the pegasus display an you have the wind information on the AP display. If it would work like that...

Sorry kurz buddy, I did not read all of your message, you want to do without the meter AND the chartplotter as a display - yes you can do that.

It's all automatic - the AP head will automatically put a yellow picture of a wind vane on the course compass when it detects any wind data in the nmea sentences. It looks like this:



Sorry I did not read you message right.

Sorry I am too stubid... But in your graphic, how can you see the wind direction and speed?

[BOAT]

thanks. I know that the ev-100 can steer by wind information without a chartplotter.
My question was if you can use the raymarine p70 dipslay (that comes with the ev-100) to show the wind direction in a graphical stile. So there was no need to mount the pegasus display an you have the wind information on the AP display. If it would work like that...

Sorry kurz buddy, I did not read all of your message, you want to do without the meter AND the chartplotter as a display - yes you can do that.

It's all automatic - the AP head will automatically put a yellow picture of a wind vane on the course compass when it detects any wind data in the nmea sentences. It looks like this:



Sorry I did not read you message right.

Sorry I am too stubid... But in your graphic, how can you see the wind direction and speed?

Sorry again, first off kurz, the AP head does not care about wind speed, it's not even part of it's calculations to control the heading of the boat so I don't think you can figure out the wind speed from the AP head. We are just talking about a wind vane here. (Actually, I don't ever care about wind speed either - if I really need to know wind speed I can just use my Iphone to take a reading) Wind speed is not very important.

This is how to read the instrument:

On the compass it's showing the forward direction of the boat is 300 degrees.

to North then is in the starboard or GREEN section of the compass rose, and to West is on the Port side of the rose in the RED section.

On the compass rose itself you will see the wind indicator - it is a yellow circle with a picture of a wind vane inside it. Right now the wind is at 260 degrees.

At the very top you can see the rudder indicator - it shows that the AP is currently putting 5 degrees starboard trim on the rudders

Right under the rudder indicator on the left side it says WIND and on the right side it says 38'P

That tells me that the wind is 38 degrees off my PORT bow.

So here is what I can gather by looking at only this instrument alone:

The boat is on a port tack - it's just off a close reach with the wind 38 degrees off the bow. Now, the head instrument does not care about the anemometer but even without a wind speed indicated I can tell the wind is pretty strong because the AP is adding a 5 degree starboard rudder so that tells me the boat is trying to round up. This is what my indicator would look like if I were in 19 knot winds heeling about 38 degrees.

1. As BOAT says, . . . . on long legs, which the mast doesn't rotate.

2. The AP doesn't need absolute wind direction, just the shifts, hence calibration is a non-issue, since a 10 deg shift from 090 is the same as a 10deg shift from 270.

Everything you said sounds fine Mike except I never said that my mast does not rotate on long legs - in fact it does. If I am pointing very high with the traveler opposite of the boom and the headsail sheeted to the cabin tracks and the boom vang hauled down really tight the mast will come off it's stops and hover. Just wanted to clarify that.

Also on number two there: I can't agree or disagree with that statement because I do not think it's correct. MY pilot follows the actual degree of the wind on a compass rose, so absolute wind direction is part of the course calculation to destination. It has to be, or the boat would never reach it's waypoint.

[kurz]

wow, you must be so smart BOAT, thanks. great!

And what will it show if the wind is blowing from behind the boat? Where will the yellow Wind simbol go?

[BOAT]

wow, you must be so smart BOAT, thanks. great!

And what will it show if the wind is blowing from behind the boat? Where will the yellow Wind simbol go?

For the full compass view you need to switch to the 2D view - in 2D view the head will show the entire compass rose all the way around. I don't bother with that because I use the chartplotter. The chartplotter in wind mode displays a compass rose all the way around the boat on the screen with indicators on the rose for the wind direction and boxes for speed and other things. The chartplotter is better for viewing the wind info and only the chartplotter can see the wind speed too (although I never pay attention to it unless we stop moving - then i get all mad and look at it to see the wind has died to less than a 1/4 knot and i get all mad until the wind comes back).

That's why my wife likes it better when the wind is blowing, when it's not I get all mad.

[MikeFloutier]

Yes, sorry BOAT, re-reading my post, it does look like I'm quoting you for a fixed mast; not intended.

My feeling was that on a long leg, which I would plan to take on a beam reach for comfort, the mast would be pretty stable.

Good point re the hovering mast when really close-hauled, especially as that's when you need the accuracy of wind shift reporting to avoid luffing .

I take your point about the wind in relation to your next waypoint. I guess your ev-100 is quite a bit more advanced than my st2000.

So, if you dial in a track plus say a 40deg wind angle I'm guessing it then calculates a lay line and the tacks at the appropriate time, continuing to the next waypoint on the opposite tack, still at 40deg to wind.

[BOAT]

So, if you dial in a track plus say a 40deg wind angle I'm guessing it then calculates a lay line and the tacks at the appropriate time, continuing to the next waypoint on the opposite tack, still at 40deg to wind.

Where do i start - that's not really navigating without seeing your destination - open ocean navigating is a lot more than just a heading. When your sailing for a day or longer with no view of any landmarks it's very different. The AP knows that:

All the waypoint pilots create an internal trending model to calculate the best course to reach a destination. So if the boat needs to arrive at location X and location X is a heading of 295 degrees the pilot steers to 295 degrees, BUT if location X keeps slipping to the port side that tells the pilot that something is pushing the boat so many degrees to the west every so many of minutes. The AP calculates that movement to the west and makes the calculation that it must point further to the north to a heading of about 300 degrees to actually make the destination X. This is most common when sailing with a current pushing the boat to port. The AP does not know what the tide or current is (it has no tide charts and there is no internet out at sea) so it figures it out on it's own by measuring movement of the boat over time and then adds in an error correction to the helm.

The AP does all this only when told to sail to a waypont, not when given a heading. I use waypoint when I travel long distance because if I use a heading the current pulls me down the coast and now my heading is pointing a mile off my destination after sailing for ten miles. I can correct every mile but that's dumb because it will make my course to destination a huge ARC and make me travel more distance and take longer, (and it's a real rookie mistake that people always used to make when they sailed with only a compass in the old days - really stupid not making magnetic and current corrections). The proper way to sail a course to a destination is to crab the boat against the current in a straight line all the way to your destination - that's what ANY good pilot does be it named AUTO or HUMAN.

And that is only for current and tides. Add in wind and the AP really gets handy as an onboard wiz for plotting location and heading.

The wind feature averages out the oscillation of the wind and also creates a trending model based on the time elapsed between wind changes to create a course correction.
So, if the wind is shifting back and forth (and it always does) the AP will follow the wind shifts to keep your speed at max wind advantage, but it also can calculate the time need to spend sailing on every heading it takes to make sure it all averages out so you end up at the desired destination. The Pilot does this for all factors, wind, current, tide - etc - for long distances is really great. If you look at the course for the FASTEST time to a destination under sail it will not be a straight line - it will be a series of S curves following the back and forth wind changes all the way to your destination - but the S curves will never be so great that as to make you travel more distance than your added speed would overcome on a straight line - on short legs a straight line is always the fastest, but on long legs, not so much. There are some really hairy calculations that long distance race boat skippers used to make to win races, (and why a lot of the winning race captains were Harvard or Yale educated nimrods back in the old days). (Damn polo shirt college boys and their officer club parties - I was just a poor barnacle so I never got invited). Ever since the VENDEEGLOBE race they are showing the captain's tracks on the internet - look at their tracks - they all make S curves.

In the old days you needed to take a sighting, plot your location, calculate the course error over the elapsed time, create that fraction for course error, add in the new magnetic error for your new location, get the new heading and set your compass accordingly. Even doing this three time a day can put you a mile off every time you make a new sighting (by sighting I mean the apex of the sun and the horizon). When you can't see anything but water you have no idea where your destination is beyond 40 degrees based on the sun so hitting a target at even 100 miles can be off by as much as 20 miles.

I really think the AP would be sounding a lot of course alarms and dropping out all the time of the wind and heading ratio were off by even 10 degrees without indicating input to confirm it. I just don't think the pilot would accept the data but you could give it a try.

[MikeFloutier]

Wow, that's pretty cool BOAT.

One advantage my st2000 has over the waypoint method you mentioned is a result of it's lack of features. As its unable to do the waypoint stuff internally it relies on the chart plotter for headings BUT the chartplotter has all the tide/current info available for the whole route.

This makes it pro-active rather than just reactive. Of course it lacks all your bells and whistles so it won't calculate lay lines etc.

Something I've been trying out is a weather routing app - https://www.fastseas.com/ - this looks forward at the winds (from GRIB files) and tides/currents, your planned sailing times and your boat's polars and start/finish points and works out the optimum route.

You can even dial in "comfort" preferences if you don't like certain sailing conditions and you can also get it to assume you're going to motor at X knots if your SOG falls below Y knots. It also has a departure planning feature based on the above to give you an idea of when to start.

It also gives loads of stats regarding the sorts of winds and points of sail you'll experience for any given start time; along with the all important "arrival time".

By the way Raymarine have now spat me out. They call the st2000 a legacy product which is a laugh since they still sell it. They also heap abuse on NASA Wind for not supporting their obsolete NMEA sentences, stating that many manufacturers (much more expensive) support both old and new. They failed to see the irony here in that my problem is caused by them doing the exact opposite of what they applaud in others.

Finally they offered me a 15% discount on a Raymarine mast-head system retailing at £950. I pointed out that they were available at a 20% discount from a regular outlet.

I'm now back to looking for a good way to interface the NASA Clipper Wind NMEA 0183 > SeaTalk.

[sailboatmike]

I think this is called cross track error and the gps measures what the heading is set for against what it is achieving due to currents, tides, slippage etc, and resets the course in order to make the waypoint , obviously this gets more complex when under sail as the boat cant sail too high to windward and poor sail balance will effect how the boat sails

[1st Sail]

NASA Clipper Wind?
Does this support rotating masts?

[1st Sail]

US price seams reasonable.
https://www.marine.com/store/c/364-Mari ... .html?pi=2

I haven't found a reference to rotating masts as yet.

[kadet]

One advantage my st2000 has over the waypoint method you mentioned is a result of it's lack of features. As its unable to do the waypoint stuff internally it relies on the chart plotter for headings BUT the chartplotter has all the tide/current info available for the whole route.

So do the more expensive APs they just have computers that take the heading and course information and make corrections using their own computer to follow the waypoint from the plotter. They do not use current and tidal information stored in the plotter this is only an almanac and is not used in navigation.

In coastal navigation the best method is to steer a fixed heading and compensate yourself so you can retrim the sails for course changes or trim as you go, I do the sails the AP does the steering . If you choose wind vane mode the winds are too variable for reliable navigation inshore it is designed for trade wind sailing offshore where the wind blows from a constant direction day after day and you can get some sleep solo without having to worry about sail trim on long voyages. Waypoint sailing in variable wind and current can cause the AP to make radical course changes to bring the boat back on track. I call this going crazy ivan as you can be sailing along nicely then the AP will turn the boat almost 90 degrees to bring the boat back on track, not good when you have the sails set for close hauled and all of a sudden you are thrown onto a beams reach without any warning

[BOAT]

One advantage my st2000 has over the waypoint method you mentioned is a result of it's lack of features. As its unable to do the waypoint stuff internally it relies on the chart plotter for headings BUT the chartplotter has all the tide/current info available for the whole route.

So do the more expensive APs they just have computers that take the heading and course information and make corrections using their own computer to follow the waypoint from the plotter. They do not use current and tidal information stored in the plotter this is only an almanac and is not used in navigation.

In coastal navigation the best method is to steer a fixed heading and compensate yourself so you can retrim the sails for course changes or trim as you go, I do the sails the AP does the steering . If you choose wind vane mode the winds are too variable for reliable navigation inshore it is designed for trade wind sailing offshore where the wind blows from a constant direction day after day and you can get some sleep solo without having to worry about sail trim on long voyages. Waypoint sailing in variable wind and current can cause the AP to make radical course changes to bring the boat back on track. I call this going crazy ivan as you can be sailing along nicely then the AP will turn the boat almost 90 degrees to bring the boat back on track, not good when you have the sails set for close hauled and all of a sudden you are thrown onto a beams reach without any warning

The plotters with the ActivePilot type software like my Garmin will use almanac info and other things, but the pilots do not - not even the latest EV pilots - they only use trending to compensate for current. Most older plotters do not compensate either based on almanac info but they often do have trending calculators.

The EV100 makes the calculations for course corrections when in "Track Mode" - Track Mode is when the AP head changes the picture to an illustration that looks like a moving road and it's sailing to a WAYPOINT, not a heading. Chartplotters can do trending calculations too, and in the case of the RayMarine "SmartSteer" or Garmin "ActivePilot" units they can do all the course calculations and send a corrected "Heading" to an old pilot that can't do such calculations, but over a long distance the heading needs to be updated and resent to the pilot - a single "Heading" is not dynamic - so if the tidal currents change or other things the "Heading" that was sent to the pilot an hour ago may no longer be accurate to reach the destination.

This is why they started putting the course calculation tasks on to the pilot instead of the plotters on later models. By having the pilot do all the calculating it can make the corrections dynamically in real time as needed. The only thing the pilot wants from the plotter now is the waypoint - that's it. Once the pilot gets the waypoint it takes over everything from that point on until you reach an imaginary circle that is drawn around the NEXT waypoint - when the boat crosses that imaginary line it calls out a course alarm and waits for the operator to confirm the upcoming course change. (In my case, alarm sounds> I wake up - rub my eyes, look around to make sure there are no boats next to me to run into ((there never are)) hit the PILOT button on my remote and reset the sails - next step: go back to sleep) the pilot accepts the course change confirmation and now changes it's heading to go after the new WAYPOINT. You can do as many waypoints as you like. Mostly for me it's for a long leg up the coast and then it's time to make the tack towards Catalina or something like that.

The chartplotters that use ActivePilot or SmartSteer use AIS, depth charts, Sounder Readings, tide tables, obstruction markers and even warnings to navigation to automatically change the course to avoid trouble and those plotters will actually resend a new heading to the AP if a boat crosses the AIS collision line or a sonar obstacle is detected!! On my unit they call it ActivePilot and it's a wonder to watch it in action! It's the only way to use a pilot in tight waters, but for me - most the time it's wide open sailing so I just let the AP steer itself to the waypoint.

Kadet is right about using fixed headings to sail the coastline because the wind change will put you off course - the wind vane mode is for long legs following the trade winds or where it really comes in handy is sailing downwind in almost any situation. The trip from Avalon to Long Beach is a good example - 4 to 5 solid hours of light winds sailing down wind with the sea behind you - I love the sail to Avalon but I hate the sail coming back. The wind vane pilot is great for that. When i sail down wind for a long time I "usually" use a vang to relieve stress on the rigging and I also rig a preventer on the boom to one of the stantions - but if I am on the pilot I ALWAYS do this. Kadet is right that the boat can make unexpected turns if it's trying to get back on a track in track mode.

[u12fly]

US price seams reasonable.
https://www.marine.com/store/c/364-Mari ... .html?pi=2

I haven't found a reference to rotating masts as yet.

Clipper dose not have rotating mast support... even if they did, you would have to design the mechanics to make it work with Mac 26M. I've looked at the specs on this display before and it should work great as a display for the Pegasus AeroNautics RM-10 Wind Sensor System. If you can pick up the Clipper Display for a $150 bucks or less, combined with the RM-10 kit which include the mast head wind sensor, mast rotation sensor, all the parts, wiring and connectors you'd be hard pressed to find anything better. http://www.flyorsail.com

[1st Sail]

Pegasus AeroNautics RM-10 Wind Sensor System is still my first choice. I either add a display or replace my Lowrance chart plotter with one that communicates with the wind system. I emailed them last fall and they recommended on of the Garmin chart plotters that also has a wind display function built in. I'm drilling the mast with pvc this weekend so I will have a wire way to the top of the mast.

[eodjedi]

Good luck purchasing the R10. I emailed them and the response I got back was:

Hello Joshua:

I'm currently in the process of moving, my plan is to get the production line up and going again within a month or two.
I'll let you know when I have RM-10 units to ship.

Chris.

So that could be a legit 1 to 2 months or Tattoo 22 calendar months.