Interior ladder

[rjantz3568]

new to sailing, would like to know if the interior ladder is structural. I would like to make mine able to swing to the starboard side for easy access to the rear berth. The PO built cabins along the port side, so no access there. Any ideas will be much appreciated.

[kmclemore]

No, I don't think it is structural. Many folks make them swing up, so swinging sideways should work.

[NiceAft]

I will tell my experience with my 2005 , you can then determine whether or not it is structural.

A few years ago I decided to install two AGM batteries in the battery compartment. I needed to move the ladder a little so as to fit two large batteries. When done, I could not reinstall the ladder because the cockpit had sagged considerably. I had to use a small pneumatic jack to raise the ladder enough to match the bolt holes. In the 2005 the ladder definitely is structural.

I did not perceive any difference until I needed to reinstall.

Let’s see if someone who has done that mod post his/her experience.

Ray

[BOAT]

It sure would be nice to get a ruling on this from the factory and I have been toying with the idea of modifying the ladder to swing out of the way for a long long time but the thing that is stopping me is the traveler.

The Main Sheet Traveler is bolted to the same structural point as the ladder and although I do not think the ladder is structural to the companionway I think it might be part of the main sheet. My concern is that in really heavy wind the traveler would pull on the companionway in an up direction so hard that it could put pressure on the seam holding the deck to the hull.

I think it would be okay to remove the ladder but I am not fully convinced it's okay to SAIL without the ladder. At least I would not sail in heavy winds without the ladder.

I sure wish Captain Mike Inmon were around to help us with questions like this one.

[NiceAft]

Boat,

Just an inquiry on my part.

With your extensive experience with modifications, how would you account for the dramatic sag if the ladder placement is not structural? If not structural, no difference if removed, but there was a enough of a difference to need a jack to lift the ladder to align the bolts.

You brought up a good point about the traveler. With sole sagging, the traveler is now concave.

It would be nice to see a response from Mike Inmon.

Ray

[BOAT]

Without a factory person to tell me I can only go by the way the architect of the boat built his other boats.

Here is a picture of the same aft cabin in the Macgregor 65 - a boat that came BEFORE the 26M and influenced greatly on the M design including double racoon stripes and a forward traveler:



You can see the cockpit 'tub' has a heavy steel support between the cockpit and the lower liner. Most boats have this area divided into two separate state rooms for crew and put the master in the forward berth - but not Roger - a huge aft wide master cabin is a MacGregor trademark - one of the things that makes it different. Without the wall down the middle or an engine room to separate the port from and starboard crew quarters there is nothing to support the cockpit above. That's why most boats don't have a beam wide aft cabin.

I think this post is too important to blow off that fast so I went out and woke up 'boat' to get some pictures. Here you can see more evidence:

There is the 'tub' for the cockpit just like on the big boat:



And here is where the 'tub' meets the ladder:



What is most interesting is the size of the bolts in the traveler and the spacing:



Can you see that the bolts that connect to the ladder are much bigger?
This setup is a dead giveaway that the ladder is part of the traveler structure.

And it's easy to see that the bottom of the ladder is attached to the lower liner of the boat just like in the Macgregor 65.

So, as much as I want to mess with that ladder since day one I have been afraid to do it . .

I am working on a mod right now for an electric traveler to move the traveler car with a button on the pedestal. (It uses a drill motor) , so I don't want to mess up the traveler structure just yet.

[NiceAft]

BOAT,

I decided to ask a certified expert, Todd from BWY. Here is his reply.

“ Yes, it is structural, I wish it weren't so we could do a swing up ladder
like the 26X had. I have seen a variety of "moveable" ladder configurations
over the years that customers have done themselves. You don't need to have
both sides fixed to provide enough strength, one side is enough. The most
common configuration I have seen is to have the ladder pivot aside using one
of the uprights as the pivot. The reason we don't offer a setup like that
to our customers is that it would be too easy to not notice that it is swung
off to the side and someone could fall down the hatch . With the swing up
ladder on the X you can't miss it because when it's up it's in your face "so
to speak".”

He added this later

“ You might add that the reason it isn't structural on the X is that the deck is supported by the walls of the head compartment and the grab post coming up out of the galley.”

This is a guy who I consider an expert on our boats, wouldn’t you?

Ray

[Russ]

Currie did a mod years ago to the aft berth. The ladder was the only way into the aft berth afterward so he fabricated some way to swing the ladder out by cutting one side and making it rotate.

It's hard to see in this photo, but the right side swings Left. I don't know how he did it, but he said it definitely was structural.

7187178b77c88e8a7c88465c5c3b4df5.jpg

[BOAT]

Ya Russ - I talked to him about his mod a long time ago in regards to the companionway and he told me that removing the ladder did not matter if you did the full mod like he did it because his bulkheads would essentially replace the structure of the ladder supporting the companionway from the bottom by just supporting the companionway from the top. If you notice he has a couple of pretty big braces on either side of the companionway that will stop the liner from sagging. It was the TRAVELER he could not address for me.

It's the traveler I was worried about - my fat butt IS a lot of stress on the seat there I suppose but there is a lot more stress in various directions from the traveler because that's the place where the main sail pulls the boat through the water. That's why there is so many pulleys on that thing! It's a LOT more than 200 pounds pulling on that little car on the traveler. What is that track gonna do it I unhook it from the ladder??? (I don't want to find out).

The only way I can come up with an answer would be to completely redesign the ladder and replace it with a cast submarine brace or something. I dunno

[NiceAft]

Ya Russ - I talked to him about his mod a long time ago in regards to the companionway and he told me that removing the ladder did not matter if you did the full mod like he did it because his bulkheads would essentially replace the structure of the ladder supporting the companionway from the bottom by just supporting the companionway from the top. If you notice he has a couple of pretty big braces on either side of the companionway that will stop the liner from sagging. It was the TRAVELER he could not address for me.

It's the traveler I was worried about - my fat butt IS a lot of stress on the seat there I suppose but there is a lot more stress in various directions from the traveler because that's the place where the main sail pulls the boat through the water. That's why there is so many pulleys on that thing! It's a LOT more than 200 pounds pulling on that little car on the traveler. What is that track gonna do it I unhook it from the ladder??? (I don't want to find out).

The only way I can come up with an answer would be to completely redesign the ladder and replace it with a cast submarine brace or something. I dunno

So the answer is yes? The ladder is a structural support on the ?

[BOAT]

I do not know and I don't want to find out the hard way.

Like happy bottom said - his 2005 started to sag without a ladder. I really don't think that would be a huge issue and his boat is almost 15 years old so i would expect a little bit of deformity after so many years but that's not the thing that makes me stay away from this mod.

It's the traveler - a failure of the traveler in 30 knot winds out in the middle of the San Pedro channel 15 miles from shore is just going to ruin my day. I can see one of those big bolts failing under heavy stress at 45 degrees and when it goes it will go right through those other little bolts just like a zipper and probably damage the deck pretty good. Those big bolts need to be connected to the bottom liner (IMHO)

I think I will follow your advice Ray, - a guy who has had one of these boats for 15 years is pretty qualified to call the ladder is structural due to personal experience so that's good enough for me.

As far as I'm concerned - it should not be cut on either side - my opinion is both sides need to be bolted to the liner at all times.

That sucks

[Highlander]

Well I was just lookin at a traveller system that has no track or carriage system basically one line an a set of pulley,s running from the gunnels & boom , can,t remember if it was a combination of a traveler/mainsheet system all in one or a separate system but I was impressed by it,s simplicity anyone could make one just buy the required pulley,s & line
J

[NiceAft]

I do not know and I don't want to find out the hard way.

Like happy bottom said - his 2005 started to sag without a ladder. I really don't think that would be a huge issue and his boat is almost 15 years old so i would expect a little bit of deformity after so many years but that's not the thing that makes me stay away from this mod.

It's the traveler - a failure of the traveler in 30 knot winds out in the middle of the San Pedro channel 15 miles from shore is just going to ruin my day. I can see one of those big bolts failing under heavy stress at 45 degrees and when it goes it will go right through those other little bolts just like a zipper and probably damage the deck pretty good. Those big bolts need to be connected to the bottom liner (IMHO)

I think I will follow your advice Ray, - a guy who has had one of these boats for 15 years is pretty qualified to call the ladder is structural due to personal experience so that's good enough for me.

As far as I'm concerned - it should not be cut on either side - my opinion is both sides need to be bolted to the liner at all times.

That sucks

OK. I understand your thinking. I don’t agree, but I understand. I’m going by my experience, and Todd’s experience.

Now I’d like to see what John is talking about. Sounds ingenious.

Ray

[Highlander]

So why not make an I beam s/s flat bar top & bot with a say 1 1/4" s/s tube in the middle with a snap in ladder pinned while sailing & removable while not easy peasy so simple , just use the same attaching bolts
J

[Russ]

Here's Currie's ladder mod. Looks like he built something on the top to make is stronger.

ladder.jpg