Sail Area Insanity

[Inquisitor]

My M has been in time-out for several years and I'm cleaning / refurbishing. In moments of contemplation, I day dream about mods. Being an engineer, I can never leave well-enough-alone. It's a bad habit. I'm putting this in the Performance and Tuning section as I'm more interested in feedback about its affect on sailing. Yes, it would be nice if I saw a performance gain, but its not the only motivation. Here are my random thoughts...

• Lee Helm - I usually run the furling genoa. On some points of sail, I get some pretty good lee helm. I usually run the cruising spinnaker mostly down wind. However, in some racing we were more aggressive and were running a beam and maybe even a close reach with the spinnaker. To say that we fought it would be an understatement. I've been considering adding a bowsprit so I can run maybe... jib and genoa, genoa and spinnaker... anyway more madness and more lee helm.
• Clutter - I really don't like the traveler in the cockpit.
• Bimini - Doesn't cover well from the elements because it can't interfere with the main sheet.

One possible solution I've seen on the forum is putting the traveler on the roof top. Seems like a pretty good idea. BUT...

Here's the madness.

• Make a SS weldment loop mounting to the back of the boat from corner to corner. It would be about as far back as the trailering loop to support the mast.
• Mount solar panels aft of the loop
• Mount the trailing edge of the Bimini
• But mainly use to to hold a six foot long traveler
• Make a longer boom.
• Make a longer foot on the main sail.

With only an hour of bouncing around in my head, I could see this would help reduce/eliminate lee helm, get both the traveler and sheets out of the cockpit and allow the Bimini and/or dodger do a better job.



OK... I'm ready. Let me have it.

[Jimmyt]

Couldn't see your pic at first. Opened it in postimages where it didn't show up either, hit download, still nothing. Went out of the thread and back in. There it is!

I think it's a great idea! Can't wait to see pics. You're adding sail area low in the rig, you're addressing several issues in cockpit usability, and there's stainless welding involved. Could it be any better?

[Interim]

Isn't lee helm caused, in part, by the center of effort being too far forward?

This would matter more on a beam reach than broad reach or run. Perhaps flying the chute when you're on a beam is the problem. Fighting it with the rudder can be creating drag, thus reducing the gain in power.

--john

[Inquisitor]

Isn't lee helm caused, in part, by the center of effort being too far forward?

This would matter more on a beam reach than broad reach or run. Perhaps flying the chute when you're on a beam is the problem. Fighting it with the rudder can be creating drag, thus reducing the gain in power.

--john

You are absolutely right and that is the point of the actual exercise I'm describing above. Let me explain a little more...

First, the racing I used to do was not really serious. It was more about the get-together. Good times in the evening, a little racing, getting the T-shirt. The winner got a mug. The point is for the fun of it... and for fun I like to throw up a lot of $#!+ up front. We may not necessarily be the fastest (but, we were). My crew (1 other) was of a similar bent. Downwind, we flew the spinnaker and genoa, wing-on-wing. When the wind shifts, the spinnaker seemed to do quite well up to about a beam reach. We were flying!

Note: When the Admiral is on board there is no room for any of this frivolity. She frowns on "washing the windows." Everything is prim and proper... reefed and only time the spinnaker comes out is going DDW.

... so back to your diagnosis. Reducing area up front to move the center of effort back is one way. Just not mine. So it came to me in a day-dream of a bowsprit to get the genoa outside the pulpit. I dislike that wrinkle. I knew this was going to make things worse, so I said to myself, "Self, I need some more sail in back." After overcoming some real insanity with the idea of making the Mac into a ketch using a Hobie cat mast, I came to just adding about 5' of boom and mainsail foot?

Bonus - Getting rid of the traveler and sheets out of the cockpit, a place to hang solar panels / wind turbine and better integration for a dodger/Bimini is actually more important to me these days than the sail area for speed and balance.

[leefrankpierce]

Been seriously considering similar work on my MacX.
I like the idea of using exact drawings to keep the sail area balance.

MacX using a backstay, will need to re-engineer that or brave removing it.
Given the very light winds I sometimes encounter on Texas Inland lakes, a huge sail area helps.
On windy days (20mph), there is always powering back to the dock.

[Highlander]

https://www.google.com/search?q=thehigh ... Zrq4CDVYgM

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... gRegQIARBO

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... HQAAAAAQEw

[Inquisitor]

RESPECT!

There you go:

• Jib on original forestay?
• Genoa on next?
• Spinnaker on outer???? Oh $#!+! Is that a mast head spinnaker? Where'd you get that? Must be a backstay (not a topping lift) to react that spinnaker.
• Can't tell from the pictures... did you also extend the main backwards as I suggest in this thread?

Someone understands about the saying, "There is no such thing as too much horsepower!"

Also means... I must not be too insane.

[Highlander]

My boat has 4 furler,s #1 profurl spinnaker furler is mounted at the end of my 4ft bowsprit an runs up to the masthead , #2 is a harken furler 3ft out on my bowsprit holds my Genny runs up the mast to the halfway point between the original Jib halyard & masthead , #3 is also a harken furler holds my Jib runs up to the original forestay mast hound , # 4 is a harken small boat furler fitted to the deck just in front of the escape hatch holds my storm jib which runs up to the original spreader masthound for the lower mast stays , the second set of top spreaders were add at the original jib mast hound for the original jib forestay
A 3rd set of masthead shrouds & 2nd set of spreaders above the original spreaders & a backstay allows me to run this set up with no fears lots of added mast support
look at the pic above for detail

J

[Highlander]

7' cabin roof mounted genny tracks & cars & backstay is mounted on a traveler on radar arch so as it can b moved from port to s/b depending on mast rotation so as not to b putting a side bend on the mast





J

[Inquisitor]

Highlander,

I can see that experimentation and massive amounts of sail area up front are second nature to you. You probably single hand all that without a second thought.

1) Do you have any lee helm issues?
2) Does your experience suggest lengthening the boom and mainsail aft another 5' might help reduce lee helm or cause other problems?
3) Although my sketch above had a strait leach, would you consider adding roach or a square top in addition to the 5 feet?
4) With all the changes to sail area, have you done anything interesting to increase righting moment?

VBR

[Highlander]

#1 Nope no lee helm issue,s
#2 mainsail is big enough adding a storm jib inside the original forestay from the spreaders down giving u an cutter rig option or onto a small mizzen mast mounted on the stern either can b achieved a lot cheaper just my opinion
#3 nope not unless u r gonna shorten the mast
#4 no my boat is usually heavily loaded with 3 battery banks , 3 fridge/freezers , 4 X 2 1/2 Gal water jugs , food , beer, although I added about 10# onto my D/B when I re-enforced it a couple of yrs ago

J

[Inquisitor]

#2 ... small mizzen mast mounted on the stern either can b achieved a lot cheaper just my opinion
J

That's real interesting. I happen to have a spare 20' Hobiecat rotating mast laying about, and I considered a ketch design a while back mounting to the transom. I think lack of forestay finally drove it out of mind. Tying to main masthead didn't seem a practical solution and that's before any real shroud considerations or having to single hand another sail.

But I'm pretty well set on this path... started working out details of an arch with internal control of both the traveler and sheets along with conduit for all the wiring I could ever want... radar, radio, Internet, WiFi, lights, solar panels. I'll wait till my D/B project is finished and I can evaluate my fiberglass work as well as my molded in pulley block. Even after I do an extended boom, I could still use the stock mainsail... it just won't reach the end of the boom.

VBR

[Ixneigh]

The M Model at least, shouldn’t have any lee or weather helm. My boat is pretty well balanced and in most weather conditions can be steered with a few fingers. If you want to get some place, keep the windows out of the water. You aren’t adding any speed. Just going sideways. The m does not have a backstay. Any sails set on fore stays will suffer from loose luff tension. That’s a performance killer. I installed runners after the mast began bouncing around one day while punching the boat through chop. They help a lot. More sail isn’t always the answer. For example Highlander’s boat wouldn’t be that great for me. We have plenty of wind normally, all year. I couldn’t carry all that sail most days, but the gear needed to handle it would be adding weight and drag. I sail most frequently with single reefed main and a working jib. The only reason I feel exists to add sail is if you live in an area of very light winds.


Ix

[Ixneigh]

My M has been in time-out for several years and I'm cleaning / refurbishing. In moments of contemplation, I day dream about mods. Being an engineer, I can never leave well-enough-alone. It's a bad habit. I'm putting this in the Performance and Tuning section as I'm more interested in feedback about its affect on sailing. Yes, it would be nice if I saw a performance gain, but its not the only motivation. Here are my random thoughts...

• Lee Helm - I usually run the furling genoa. On some points of sail, I get some pretty good lee helm. I usually run the cruising spinnaker mostly down wind. However, in some racing we were more aggressive and were running a beam and maybe even a close reach with the spinnaker. To say that we fought it would be an understatement. I've been considering adding a bowsprit so I can run maybe... jib and genoa, genoa and spinnaker... anyway more madness and more lee helm.
• Clutter - I really don't like the traveler in the cockpit.
• Bimini - Doesn't cover well from the elements because it can't interfere with the main sheet.

One possible solution I've seen on the forum is putting the traveler on the roof top. Seems like a pretty good idea. BUT...

Here's the madness.

• Make a SS weldment loop mounting to the back of the boat from corner to corner. It would be about as far back as the trailering loop to support the mast.
• Mount solar panels aft of the loop
• Mount the trailing edge of the Bimini
• But mainly use to to hold a six foot long traveler
• Make a longer boom.
• Make a longer foot on the main sail.

With only an hour of bouncing around in my head, I could see this would help reduce/eliminate lee helm, get both the traveler and sheets out of the cockpit and allow the Bimini and/or dodger do a better job.



OK... I'm ready. Let me have it.

The bridge deck traveler is actually the most efficient placement. It helps flatten the main sail more effectively.

Sail area added by adding boom length isn’t going to add much drive. That’s a low aspect sail plan for older boat designs. The M has a modern low wetted surface design and an advanced rig. It would be like putting wood spoked wheels on ones automobile.

Ix

[Inquisitor]

The M Model at least, shouldn’t have any lee or weather helm. My boat is pretty well balanced and in most weather conditions can be steered with a few fingers. If you want to get some place, keep the windows out of the water. You aren’t adding any speed. Just going sideways. The m does not have a backstay. Any sails set on fore stays will suffer from loose luff tension. That’s a performance killer. I installed runners after the mast began bouncing around one day while punching the boat through chop. They help a lot. More sail isn’t always the answer. For example Highlander’s boat wouldn’t be that great for me. We have plenty of wind normally, all year. I couldn’t carry all that sail most days, but the gear needed to handle it would be adding weight and drag. I sail most frequently with single reefed main and a working jib. The only reason I feel exists to add sail is if you live in an area of very light winds.

Ix

Interesting how my words were interpreted. Guess I need to use more emoji.

Washing windows is never about speed. Its just fun and lets me explore mine and the boat's limits. I don't worry about a knock down... at all. Ben there, done that... enjoyed it (after it snapped back up)

And I agree, it is well balanced around where it SHOULD be sailed well. Again, I seem to go outside those norms... for fun. Its like power over steering a car (on the track of course). It's a real kick in the pants... not faster and certainly burns up tires.

Now that I'm a little older and hopefully a little wiser, I do really need to explore efficient speed. Now, I have places to go... versus just the going.

And since I'd like to add your sailing grounds to my list, I certainly need to embrace your suggestions.