Opinions on different Head Sails ( Jib or Genoa and other options)

[Sheppie62]

So my original 150 Genoa is starting to rip a bit. Have been looking at the different sails offered, read some opinions etc. I sail mostly in San Diego area, typically very light wind in the mornings and increases to about 15 mph in afternoons. We also sail in Mission Bay sometimes, it requires a bit of maneuvering. We are beginners and not great at sailing. Most people say we should have a Genoa here because of light wind. I am liking the idea of easier tacking with a Jib, and pointing more up wind. But not so excited about loss of down wind power. I currently have an offshore 6 oz full batten main sail, seems to work well (Roller Tasker). I have seen Genoa’s sold with padded luffs, would this be a good option? Would a furled in Padded Genoa act like a Jib with the lines run to the cabin top? And this particular sail is really expensive about $1200. I have also read that if a standard jib is used, a asymmetrical spinnaker is a great combination for that. But I’m not sure I’m ready for a spinnaker. Opinions? Weights? Is it common to have a lighter fratricidal weight head sail?

[dlandersson]

You want a a 150 Genoa with 6 oz material.

So my original 150 Genoa is starting to rip a bit. Have been looking at the different sails offered, read some opinions etc. I sail mostly in San Diego area, typically very light wind in the mornings and increases to about 15 mph in afternoons. We also sail in Mission Bay sometimes, it requires a bit of maneuvering. We are beginners and not great at sailing. Most people say we should have a Genoa here because of light wind. I am liking the idea of easier tacking with a Jib, and pointing more up wind. But not so excited about loss of down wind power. I currently have an offshore 6 oz full batten main sail, seems to work well (Roller Tasker). I have seen Genoa’s sold with padded luffs, would this be a good option? Would a furled in Padded Genoa act like a Jib with the lines run to the cabin top? And this particular sail is really expensive about $1200. I have also read that if a standard jib is used, a asymmetrical spinnaker is a great combination for that. But I’m not sure I’m ready for a spinnaker. Opinions? Weights? Is it common to have a lighter fratricidal weight head sail?

[BillyBobV]

FWIW
We live up in NorCal sailing mainly on lakes or the delta and are relatively new. We decided pretty quickly to put the genoa away and learn with the jib. It's easier to handle for us newbies, even with light winds we do alright with it. Our plan is to move up to the genoa once we're proficient and comfortable with the jib. I did purchase a spinnaker from BlueWater Yachts but haven't installed the hardware just yet. Gotta get comfortable with the jib and genoa first.
Good luck with your decision.
Cheers

[Sheppie62]

And I’m not real excited about our current Genoa blocking the view forward, inside mission bay is sometimes quite busy. Is a Jib much better?

[Stickinthemud57]

I use hank-on sails on a 26S, so my experience is slightly different, but here's my $.02.

I find that in winds upwards of 10 knots, there is relatively little to be gained using a 150% genoa instead of a 100% jib. When I first got my 150%, I thought it would become my go-to sail, but found out over time that when winds got above 12-13 knots or so my 26S was overpowered using a 150% sail. The boat would heel a lot and it would not point as well as when equipped with the 100% jib regardless of wind speed. Downwind, of course, the more sail you have up the faster you will go, but hull speed will limit you unless there is enough wind to get your boat up on plane.

For now, I reserve use of the 150% for days when the expected wind speed will be 10 knots or lower. The 100% moves the boat just as well, is easier to tack, and points better. Also, as sheppie mentioned, it is easier to see around.

I often see people sailing using the genoa alone when just out cruising or single-handing, but pointing is not optimal. This is the trade-off when using a 150% genoa with roller furling as a "convertible" sail. The shape is less than optimal, so pointing is not as good.

Todd McChesney at Blue Water Yachts has told me about a revamped headsail system that utilizes a slightly larger (110%, I think) headsail with modified stays and spreaders, the purpose being to obviate the need for a 150% foresail but still allow for running the sail inside the lifelines for better pointing. Our conversation centered on the 26S, so I don't know if he has a similar solution for your boat.

Some people advocate the use of a drifter for those low wind conditions, but those can't really be sailed to windward.

Hope this is helpful!

[Highlander]

I think u all need to fly more headsail along with a little more ballast or railmeat on the rails







J

[Sheppie62]

I’m leaning towards a Jib and later a spinnaker. Can the spinnaker be operated from the cockpit?

[rsvpasap]

Does anyone have any experience concerning whether using a staysail with a 150% genoa increases pointing?

[Highlander]

I think if I was replacing my genny I would seriously think about going with a code zero on a furler , but I,d still keep my Jib on the furler



J

[Highlander]

Does anyone have any experience concerning whether using a staysail with a 150% genoa increases pointing?

If u watch my above posted vid u,ll notice I,m sailing pretty high into the wind & waves with full Genny , Jib & Mainsail , my Genny is out 3ft on my bowsprit
No round-up or lee helm
J

[Stickinthemud57]

First of all, all due respect to Highlander. Judging from his location and numerous posts, his experience is broader and deeper than mine, which is limited to sailing in protected waters, in boats ranging from 14 to 26 feet in length.

The impression I get from the video is of a boat that is flying too much sail for the wind speed and direction, lack of round-up and lee helm notwithstanding. It doesn't look the boat is moving very fast, but I don't know if the camera vessel is moving, so it's hard to say. Running close-hauled into a headsea is not helping matters either, I am sure. Now, what I would really like to see is that boat (or any 26M or X) flying a 150% headsail downwind, wing-on-wing in a 25-knot or better wind. Wonder if that would be enough to get it planing.

My take is that sometimes (particularly sailing to windward) less is more, and that the proper amount of sail is the best choice. I find this enhances speed, comfort, handling, and safety. "Optimum" heel is considered by many to be 15 to 20 degrees, as it results in less wetted hull area. A boat that is heeling excessively presents less effective sail area to the wind, and airflow starts shifting from fore-to-aft to bottom-to-top, thus becoming less efficient.

Dynamics at the centerboard and rudder are similar. From my experience, the more the boat heels, the less effective they become at preventing the boat from moving downwind. As the centerboard and rudder move more sideways through the water, turbulence can develop which negatively affects lift and overall performance.

Of course, to each his/her own. Merely my observations and opinions.

[Highlander]

First of all, all due respect to Highlander. Judging from his location and numerous posts, his experience is broader and deeper than mine, which is limited to sailing in protected waters, in boats ranging from 14 to 26 feet in length.

The impression I get from the video is of a boat that is flying too much sail for the wind speed and direction, lack of round-up and lee helm notwithstanding. It doesn't look the boat is moving very fast, but I don't know if the camera vessel is moving, so it's hard to say. Running close-hauled into a headsea is not helping matters either, I am sure. Now, what I would really like to see is that boat (or any 26M or X) flying a 150% headsail downwind, wing-on-wing in a 25-knot or better wind. Wonder if that would be enough to get it planing.

My take is that sometimes (particularly sailing to windward) less is more, and that the proper amount of sail is the best choice. I find this enhances speed, comfort, handling, and safety. "Optimum" heel is considered by many to be 15 to 20 degrees, as it results in less wetted hull area. A boat that is heeling excessively presents less effective sail area to the wind, and airflow starts shifting from fore-to-aft to bottom-to-top, thus becoming less efficient.

Dynamics at the centerboard and rudder are similar. From my experience, the more the boat heels, the less effective they become at preventing the boat from moving downwind. As the centerboard and rudder move more sideways through the water, turbulence can develop which negatively affects lift and overall performance.

Of course, to each his/her own. Merely my observations and opinions.

I have no issues with ur opinion
that vid was made to prove a point that this boat could not punch thru 1 meter waves or more & would stall because it was not heavy enough & was also to susceptible to a knock down & the vid proves wrong look at the flag flying straight back showing I,m sailing into the wind & punching thru 1 meter waves & more head on burying the bow from 1 wave crest to the next still proceeding & making way not stalling ! sailing cutter rigged full Genny , Jib & main some times heeled more than 45 degrees burying the genny in the troughs filling it with enough water to fill a bathtub & notice the water fall coming outa the genny when the boat crests the waves still no knock down , yes the boat doe,s look like its not going very fast because the vid was being taken from another flying full genny & main going in the same direction but observe how far behind I,m at the start of the vid & notice I actually catch that boat & pass it ! Cutter rigged full sails so kinda blows some of ur theories outa the window but I proved a point & shut the nay sayers up . Yes if I had reefed the mainsail, furled the genny & went with full jib & storm Jib on my inner stay cutter rigged I would have been going a lot faster & les heel , but that was not the purpose of making this vid it was to prove it,s safety ability with a capable skipper & not the crap coming outa the nay sayers mouths , my boat is set up & rigged not to have any lee helm or weather helm or at least the min as poss. so as I can fly this much sail cutter rigged so if u r single handed u better not go O/B & say bye bye boat as she keeps sailin on this is done with the help of an adjustable back stay on a traveller mounted on a radar arch along with a few other Mods I don,t recommend sailing like that as I said it was done with a purpose in mind altho I was single handed making that vid as safety factor was built in I had two other boats with me
alot of the older members remember why this was done when our Mac,s were gettin beat up on other sites so I posted that vid on youtube along with this vid

I later installed 7ft Genny tracks on the cabin roof between the stanchions for better Genny sail shape & control

& this Vid


Now if u think I,m a little crazy shootin that vid sittin on the end of my 4ft bowspit I,ll agree with U lol

Heel what heel ! enjoy have fun as we did makin these vids


Oh I remember now somebody told me he married a heel bought a house & ended up living in a highrise alone
last March & April I was running around in T shirts & shorts this yr I,m still wearin jeans & a hoodi so much for Global warmin

J

[Stickinthemud57]

Thanks for that detailed response. Looks like we are in agreement on at least a couple of points.

"Yes if I had reefed the mainsail, furled the genny & went with full jib & storm Jib on my inner stay cutter rigged I would have been going a lot faster & les heel..."

"I don,t recommend sailing like that..."

(Full-rigged in a brisk wind if I understood correctly)

[Sheppie62]

Like idea of a 2nd roller furling sail. I think I will call Todd also see about that new jib sail design also. I will read about more about highlanders set up. Curious about what size/ type of sail that is on the front.

[Stickinthemud57]

I am a fan of clipper rigs if for no other reason than they look so cool. For my boat, the practicality is questionable.

I have seen several videos of the Code Zero furling foresails and they look like they unfurl and furl pretty easily, catch wind nicely, and can sail fairly well to windward. If I did a lot of blue water sailing where having a big sail to keep the boat moving in light winds would be a boon, I would definitely be looking into that. As it stands, I don't have plans to sail any bigger distances than 3 gallons of gas will take me if I find myself becalmed.